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> The European Commission has pledged, however, to create a legal route for sales of new cars that only run on e-fuels to continue after 2035, after Germany dem

> The European Commission has pledged, however, to create a legal route for sales of new cars that only run on e-fuels to continue after 2035, after Germany demanded this exemption from the ban. Sigh!

comandillos 4y ago
Is either that or Germany letting their automakers that have not been able to adapt to the new EV era just die... and nobody wants to see what is that impact of that over the whole European economy...
- wongarsu 4y ago
  According to [1] Volkswagen was the third largest producer of EVs in 2022, only behind BYD and Tesla. And BMW and Mercedes Benz both are in the top 10. It's not like German automakers have been sitting on their hands or would just die. The problem is not so much the automakers themselves but their suppliers. Those employ far more people, and EVs just don't need a lot of those parts. 1: https://www.ev-volumes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/WW-S3-12-2022.png https://www.ev-volumes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/WW-S3-...
- izacus 4y ago
  All the big German automakers have launched good EVs by now and they've been successful on the market as well in Europe. Which ones are you talking about?
  - censor_me 4y ago
    [dead]
  - comandillos 4y ago
    They provide good alternatives, indeed, but Tesla is still the most sold brand in Europe, and anyone living in Central Europe cannot deny that Tesla is by far the most dominant EV brand. The reason behind it is that there is pretty much nothing in that price range that offers the same as a Model 3 or Y... However, Tesla has sold more vehicles than the ones they can provide support to, so all their service centers are collapsed due to their dealership policy... The European brands need to be more competitive, and although they are on good track for it, I think they are a bit late to the game. Is either that or people noticing that the after sales support of Tesla is inexistent and they start to value the perks of the legacy automakers.
    - izacus 4y ago
      That's because European brands offer more models so your top graphs are fragmented. This is how market competition looks like - having a choice of models and brands not just a single Tesla 3. On top 10, European brands together vastly outsold Tesla - VAG group for example outsold all Tesla models in EU last year.
- arlcode 4y ago
  It's not the automakers. Those have long since started to transition to BEVs and do offer some attractive options which are produced at scale and can often be seen on the streets where I am (not near any of the OEM headquarters). They have also mostly stopped R&D on ICE technology The issue is with the suppliers and suppliers of suppliers which are a backbone of German industry and some of which cannot transition away ICE technology. Of course e-fuels are not going to safe them anyway but their lobbying caused this.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    The automakers did put up initial resistance, some Japanese brands still are. But this particular political compromise is just a libertarian party needing a workaround to avoid to be seen banning something that everyone knows will be obsolete by that time anyway. The EV transition is accelerating, this is just the minimum that could get cross EU support in law today. But individual countries already have their own phase outs.
quic5 4y ago
All because of a single German political party that will struggle to get the required 5% next term. Kinda crazy
go_elmo 4y ago
Not Germany, but the FDP Party is to blame, representing sub 5% subset of voters.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  Arguably the represent 11.5%, since that's how many votes they got. But yeah, their current poll results are a lot worse than that.
  - b3orn 4y ago
    They represent much less, they lost a lot of votes in state parliament elections since the federal election, not just in polls.
- oaiey 4y ago
  Unlimited Speed on Highways = People who drive really fast = People think their time is money = Entrepreneur mindset = FDP key voters. Guess what we Germans are unable to kill either: Adding a generic speed limit so we do not get heart attacks when someone drives 300km behind us. Sucks but is called a compromise. Democracy.
  - samjmck 4y ago
    Genuinely curious: does having no speed limit cause more deaths on the road?
    - mantas 4y ago
      I remember there was a test run Australia and no speed limit didn't increase casualties. Whenever I come over to Germany, driving on autobans feels like a pleasure compared to eastern european highways with a speed limit :/
      - defrost 4y ago
        Four dead was the usual number of casualties? https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/05/24/Four-die-in-Australian-road-rally/8473769752000/ https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/05/24/Four-die-in-Australi...
rafale 4y ago
If they they are carbon neutral or near neutral like lithium batteries, then why not?
- henearkr 4y ago
  Air pollution, noise pollution, health problems.
- mr_mitm 4y ago
  We'll be needing any kWh of green electricity we can get, and wasting it on inefficient e-fuels is dumb and wasteful. But I guess everybody has the right to be dumb and wasteful, so here we are.
unwind 4y ago
Sounds annoying, but I had to skim through looking for a definition of "e-fuel" since it was not a term I was accustomed to. Found it: E-fuels are produced by synthesising captured CO2 emissions and hydrogen produced using CO2-free electricity. They are considered carbon neutral because the CO2 released when the fuel is combusted is balanced by the CO2 removed from the atmosphere to produce the fuel. And also learnt that they're also called "electrofuels" [1]. That makes it sound less horrible, except that such production doesn't exist yet at a sensible/interesting scale as far as I understand. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrofuel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrofuel
- rob74 4y ago
  Nevertheless, e-fuel cars are still a step back compared to electric cars: electric cars don't pollute while they're running, but may still generate pollution depending on how the electricity they are charged with was produced, e-fuel cars produce both tailpipe pollution and potentially also electricity generation pollution. But I guess that due to how horrendously expensive e-fuels will be, these vehicles will be so rare that tailpipe pollution won't matter much...
  - cryptonym 4y ago
    e-fuel cars also generate noise, sound pollution. Sad that Germany prevented us from getting rid of that noisy redneck revving his expensive engine in the middle of the city.
    - andrewshadura 4y ago
      All cars generate noise pollution. Most noise in cars is produced by tyres.
      - henearkr 4y ago
        Tyres noises are not what spikes my blood pressure in the middle of the night. Those are engine/tailpipe noises.
New_California 4y ago
Poland and Hungary were also strictly against the ban on selling gasoline cars. So no, it's not only Germany. Whether EU itself will be still a thing in 12+ years to enforce this bullshit ban is another question.
- arlcode 4y ago
  What makes you believe it won't be a thing (or a rebranded version of it)? Unless any of the European countries (even the larger ones) wants to be crushed by the economic weight of the US or China they better stick together. Even most Euro-skeptics seems to get it by now. The fact that Russia is removing itself from the game of economics and has voluntarily killed of European dependency on their gas is reducing inner EU conflict.
  - New_California 4y ago
    Not saying it necessarily will fall apart but there is a possibility. UK is already out. Hungary and Poland are very nasty EU members for lack of a better term. The tension is growing. Personally I would much prefer EU to *reset* to bare free-trade, free-movement, no-borders ethos, removing entirety of central regulations and central governance.
  - lakomen 4y ago
    haha this is so naive I don't know what to say, it's almost cute. I can only wish you open eyes and an open mind capable of thinking your own thoughts. I should know better than to comment on something like this, but sometimes I just can't be helped.
- ihatepython 4y ago
  > Whether EU itself will be still a thing in 12+ years to enforce this bullshit ban is another question. You are correct, the EU is going to break up, definitely before 2035, and probably sooner rather than later. We are at the beginning of a serious financial crisis, this time it's a sovereign debt crisis, caused by going to negative interest rates in 2014 (among other reasons).

comandillos 4y ago

Is either that or Germany letting their automakers that have not been able to adapt to the new EV era just die... and nobody wants to see what is that impact of that over the whole European economy...

wongarsu 4y ago
According to [1] Volkswagen was the third largest producer of EVs in 2022, only behind BYD and Tesla. And BMW and Mercedes Benz both are in the top 10. It's not like German automakers have been sitting on their hands or would just die. The problem is not so much the automakers themselves but their suppliers. Those employ far more people, and EVs just don't need a lot of those parts. 1: https://www.ev-volumes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/WW-S3-12-2022.png https://www.ev-volumes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/WW-S3-...
izacus 4y ago
All the big German automakers have launched good EVs by now and they've been successful on the market as well in Europe. Which ones are you talking about?
- censor_me 4y ago
  [dead]
- comandillos 4y ago
  They provide good alternatives, indeed, but Tesla is still the most sold brand in Europe, and anyone living in Central Europe cannot deny that Tesla is by far the most dominant EV brand. The reason behind it is that there is pretty much nothing in that price range that offers the same as a Model 3 or Y... However, Tesla has sold more vehicles than the ones they can provide support to, so all their service centers are collapsed due to their dealership policy... The European brands need to be more competitive, and although they are on good track for it, I think they are a bit late to the game. Is either that or people noticing that the after sales support of Tesla is inexistent and they start to value the perks of the legacy automakers.
  - izacus 4y ago
    That's because European brands offer more models so your top graphs are fragmented. This is how market competition looks like - having a choice of models and brands not just a single Tesla 3. On top 10, European brands together vastly outsold Tesla - VAG group for example outsold all Tesla models in EU last year.
arlcode 4y ago
It's not the automakers. Those have long since started to transition to BEVs and do offer some attractive options which are produced at scale and can often be seen on the streets where I am (not near any of the OEM headquarters). They have also mostly stopped R&D on ICE technology The issue is with the suppliers and suppliers of suppliers which are a backbone of German industry and some of which cannot transition away ICE technology. Of course e-fuels are not going to safe them anyway but their lobbying caused this.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  The automakers did put up initial resistance, some Japanese brands still are. But this particular political compromise is just a libertarian party needing a workaround to avoid to be seen banning something that everyone knows will be obsolete by that time anyway. The EV transition is accelerating, this is just the minimum that could get cross EU support in law today. But individual countries already have their own phase outs.

quic5 4y ago

All because of a single German political party that will struggle to get the required 5% next term. Kinda crazy

go_elmo 4y ago

Not Germany, but the FDP Party is to blame, representing sub 5% subset of voters.

wongarsu 4y ago
Arguably the represent 11.5%, since that's how many votes they got. But yeah, their current poll results are a lot worse than that.
- b3orn 4y ago
  They represent much less, they lost a lot of votes in state parliament elections since the federal election, not just in polls.
oaiey 4y ago
Unlimited Speed on Highways = People who drive really fast = People think their time is money = Entrepreneur mindset = FDP key voters. Guess what we Germans are unable to kill either: Adding a generic speed limit so we do not get heart attacks when someone drives 300km behind us. Sucks but is called a compromise. Democracy.
- samjmck 4y ago
  Genuinely curious: does having no speed limit cause more deaths on the road?
  - mantas 4y ago
    I remember there was a test run Australia and no speed limit didn't increase casualties. Whenever I come over to Germany, driving on autobans feels like a pleasure compared to eastern european highways with a speed limit :/
    - defrost 4y ago
      Four dead was the usual number of casualties? https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/05/24/Four-die-in-Australian-road-rally/8473769752000/ https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/05/24/Four-die-in-Australi...

rafale 4y ago

If they they are carbon neutral or near neutral like lithium batteries, then why not?

henearkr 4y ago
Air pollution, noise pollution, health problems.
mr_mitm 4y ago
We'll be needing any kWh of green electricity we can get, and wasting it on inefficient e-fuels is dumb and wasteful. But I guess everybody has the right to be dumb and wasteful, so here we are.

unwind 4y ago

Sounds annoying, but I had to skim through looking for a definition of "e-fuel" since it was not a term I was accustomed to. Found it: E-fuels are produced by synthesising captured CO2 emissions and hydrogen produced using CO2-free electricity. They are considered carbon neutral because the CO2 released when the fuel is combusted is balanced by the CO2 removed from the atmosphere to produce the fuel. And also learnt that they're also called "electrofuels" [1]. That makes it sound less horrible, except that such production doesn't exist yet at a sensible/interesting scale as far as I understand. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrofuel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrofuel

rob74 4y ago
Nevertheless, e-fuel cars are still a step back compared to electric cars: electric cars don't pollute while they're running, but may still generate pollution depending on how the electricity they are charged with was produced, e-fuel cars produce both tailpipe pollution and potentially also electricity generation pollution. But I guess that due to how horrendously expensive e-fuels will be, these vehicles will be so rare that tailpipe pollution won't matter much...
- cryptonym 4y ago
  e-fuel cars also generate noise, sound pollution. Sad that Germany prevented us from getting rid of that noisy redneck revving his expensive engine in the middle of the city.
  - andrewshadura 4y ago
    All cars generate noise pollution. Most noise in cars is produced by tyres.
    - henearkr 4y ago
      Tyres noises are not what spikes my blood pressure in the middle of the night. Those are engine/tailpipe noises.

New_California 4y ago

Poland and Hungary were also strictly against the ban on selling gasoline cars. So no, it's not only Germany. Whether EU itself will be still a thing in 12+ years to enforce this bullshit ban is another question.

arlcode 4y ago
What makes you believe it won't be a thing (or a rebranded version of it)? Unless any of the European countries (even the larger ones) wants to be crushed by the economic weight of the US or China they better stick together. Even most Euro-skeptics seems to get it by now. The fact that Russia is removing itself from the game of economics and has voluntarily killed of European dependency on their gas is reducing inner EU conflict.
- New_California 4y ago
  Not saying it necessarily will fall apart but there is a possibility. UK is already out. Hungary and Poland are very nasty EU members for lack of a better term. The tension is growing. Personally I would much prefer EU to *reset* to bare free-trade, free-movement, no-borders ethos, removing entirety of central regulations and central governance.
- lakomen 4y ago
  haha this is so naive I don't know what to say, it's almost cute. I can only wish you open eyes and an open mind capable of thinking your own thoughts. I should know better than to comment on something like this, but sometimes I just can't be helped.
ihatepython 4y ago
> Whether EU itself will be still a thing in 12+ years to enforce this bullshit ban is another question. You are correct, the EU is going to break up, definitely before 2035, and probably sooner rather than later. We are at the beginning of a serious financial crisis, this time it's a sovereign debt crisis, caused by going to negative interest rates in 2014 (among other reasons).