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Push notifications are now supported cross-browser

258 points by twapi 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
noduerme 4y ago
Great, right when this stopped being a commercial goal because we explained to the execs that we couldn't do it . What a wonderful feature. I'm gonna just quit and tell the boss to have GPT write the fuckin code for this. I'm sure that'll work.
javajosh 4y ago
[flagged]
- fassssst 4y ago
  Push notifications are for popping a toast on the user’s device, like a new text message notification.
- berdon 4y ago
  The key difference is that push notification's backing "service" are out of band with the subscribers. Applications can subscribe to push notifications and get them even if they're off (the OS runs them and gives them the notification). WebSockets are closed if the app closes. A little to your point, the backing notification service might rely on WebSockets or polling, or a mixture of both, in implementation.
- quotemstr 4y ago
  > Or, in my own words, ignore Push notifications and just use WebSockets. I wonder whether all the people who blindly accept utter nonsense ChatGPT tells them were applying any critical thinking before the age of AI.
- npteljes 4y ago
  >Or, in my own words, ignore Push notifications and just use WebSockets. Battery consumption is a big difference between the two. To keep the connection open, you need constant connection with the radio hardware, keeping it running, having it actively reconnect etc. Push notifications don't need a continous connection, the provider just connects from time to time and delivers the notifications then. There's some latency involved, but the power consumption is orders of magnitude lower.
grose 4y ago
I have been waiting for this for a long time. I run a small forum and have maybe 10 core users who use it a lot. It is a recreation of a forgotten kind of old forum but with some modern features. I would like users to be able to opt-in to push notifications when someone replies to their post or when they get a private message. I get Patreon support that breaks even for server fees but otherwise it is a labor of love. I am currently using a Telegram bot to send users pushes but I was always hoping Safari would finally relent so I could use the real deal. Thank you, browser vendors. I agree with most of the comments here that push messages are generally evil but this is a huge boon for small niche websites like mine that don't have the resources to make a dedicated app.
- focusedone 4y ago
  This is the first legitimate excuse I've heard on the entire internet for browser push notifications.
  - afavour 4y ago
    I’d love to receive things like “product shipped” notifications. I know I can get emails but my inbox is just a firehose, would be great to move crap like that out of it.
  - c-hendricks 4y ago
    There's been discussion for years over web notifications and this is the first you've heard that people like to get notified when people respond to them?
    - soraminazuki 4y ago
      People have been putting up with large amounts of junk notifications for years. No one needs to wade through discussions to know how they'd feel when they're about to receive even more of them.
- distantsounds 4y ago
  yes, everything about this. for websites that still use forums (yes they are out there!) push notifications for quoted replies and direct messages would be extremely helpful. i believe push notifications are one of the largest reasons why forums died out in days of early smartphones - not having that instant feedback of interaction caused their own interactions to diminish as well. the need for dedicated apps on your smart phone is now almost unnecessary at this point, unless you're doing something extremely niche. what a win.
tonetheman 4y ago
[dead]
dathinab 4y ago
Nice, I do like it it had show quite useful for certain use cases. Pro: - notifications without needing a account (and e.g. giving them your mail) - notifications when you use a web app (e.g. mail), I just don't want to install a app for quite a bunch of things, best it also works in situations where you simply can't install an app (e.g. company computer) - less persistent/annoying then mail notifcation (through depends a bit on your OS notification manager) Cons: - less reliable - less persistent then mail notification - some sites try to push them on users, but then it's a pretty good indicator for which site not to use Os/User Specific: - I have seen cases where Windows displayed them quite intrusive and it was non obvious where they where coming from making it hard to disable them for a non tech versatile user. Especially when it came to web mail clients, web messenger clients and some simple entertainment sites they have shown quite useful to me while the sites I visit normally don't try to push them onto users in an annoying way.
- agentdrtran 4y ago
  also pro: notifications on iOS for things that won't pass apple's walled garden
berdon 4y ago
This is a major deal for progressive web apps (PWAs) replacing native mobile development. Most native mobile apps have been able to be replaced by a PWA for at least the last 5 years but couldn't, on iOS, if they needed notifications. Now we can say bye to all the native, cross-platform frameworks and just use PWAs.
vhiremath4 4y ago
Am I the only one who has basically disabled all notifications at this point? Even if I turned them on for a select few apps I would actually potentially want them for (Slack, email, Instagram), there is so much noise in those apps and I can’t differentiate between what I actually want: “send me Slack notifications if it seems urgent from my boss or team” “send me email notifications if it’s from a top enterprise customer” “send me Instagram DMs only if it’s from someone I’m interested in dating” ^ These are the kinds of notifications I would want to hit the push threshold but there’s no way to do that. Maybe a useful application of LLMs?
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > Am I the only one who has basically disabled all notifications at this point Nope. I disable all notifications as well. The small handful of somewhat useful ones aren't worth the annoying and distracting cascade of completely worthless ones.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  Nope, I have very few notifications allowed on my personal devices. Basically Messages/SMS and phone. And those are set to vibrate/visual, no sound. Work laptop also has email and Slack visuals, no sound. And I use Focus/Sleep to eliminate all (except wife/kid/parents) notifications from 9pm to 7am. Edit - I can think of only 2-3 apps that send push notifications and they're mostly fitness related. The notifications are generally of the type "your workout was synced" and the only reason I leave these up is I use 3-4 apps and when they don't sync, I want to manually force a re-sync. None send random "we've updated a thing!" messages (and if they did, I disable the notifications). I absolutely do NOT want random, unscheduled notifications that aren't directly related to something I did/am doing.
  - dymk 4y ago
    I don't understand how it's acceptable for apps like Uber or DoorDash to deliver to me an unprompted ad, pushed into my notifications center. It's always something like "10% off your order for the next day!" or "Try this new pass thing!". Firstly, that's a guaranteed way for me to disable all notifications from the app, if not uninstall it. Secondly, how is that not a violation of some sort of Apple Developer Guideline? I wish they'd crack down on that sort of thing.
anonyfox 4y ago
From the business side, all cases I remember why management decided to have some "native app" (even if its just a wrapped web app), is because they REALLY want notifications. (ignoring for a moment most users don't want them :-) ) So, does wthis mean we finally have the moment in time where PWAs start to be the best default choice instead of an appstore-app? I would appeciate that! Too bad we're entering a time right now where the concept of "frontend engineering" evaporates in favor of Chat-UX :/
weatherlight 4y ago
This is a step in the right direction. Now that they are standardized across all modern browsers, standards around their governance will follow.
julianlam 4y ago
This is great news... Unfortunate as I used to be bullish on browser based push notifications, but in reality they were never working reliably on mobile devices. I use a web API for my SMS gateway, and implemented push notifications via Firebase. It didn't matter whether I was using Fennec/Firefox, Chrome, or Vivaldi, I would always cease to be notified the moment the browser was killed off by my phone. I eventually got sick of it and ported the logic over to call ntfy.sh instead. Not a single missed message since.
- MacroChip 4y ago
  I've had no issue with Firebase on a personal project just pushing to my android. The big caveat is that the push doesn't wake the phone. So all notifications drop in when I click the screen on.
ar9av 4y ago
Apple supports them now. Everyone else has been doing it for years.
quyleanh 4y ago
With more and more update recently, it's seems that Apple doesn't want to get another EU compliance rule of default browser?
jmull 4y ago
> Push messages can be particularly useful for applications that need to deliver timely, relevant information to their users, such as news or sports apps, or for e-commerce websites that want to send users notifications about special offers or sales. Sure, they have their uses… but web sites will send far more notifications than anyone wants to receive. People would enjoy a drinking fountain but get a fire hose. I don’t even think about it. I just click “no” (and curse under my breath for even making me do that) and move on.
- paulmeinshausen 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - aerzen 4y ago
    I dont consider my phone to be out of date, but this website you linked is way too much for it. Laggy, takes 10sec to load and then asks for cookies before I even see what it is about. Nope.
  - haspok 4y ago
    > Aampe adds AI and ML optimization to your existing marketing stack, so you can send better messages in hours, not months. Nice try, buddy. It is not a "tooling problem", it is a GTF-off-my-lawn problem.
    - paulmeinshausen 4y ago
      And ML can help recognise users who feel that way and "get off their lawn" faster. It's absolutely a tooling problem.
      - haspok 4y ago
        You are overcomplicating it. User turns off notifications permanently (in Firefox, the setting is called "Block new requests asking to allow notifications"), problem solved. No tooling needed!
      - 4y ago
hartator 4y ago
How is that good? New ways to spam us?
paulmeinshausen 4y ago
[dead]
- npteljes 4y ago
  >technology is supposed to help its users Now that's a huge misconception. It isn't in technology's nature to take sides, and it's also not regulated to do that, and neither do technologists have a universal moral stance that would support that. So in the end, technology serves whomever happens to control it, and circling back to notifications, currently service providers seem to have the biggest say in how many notifications go around.
  - schaunwheeler 4y ago
    It's in people's nature to take sides, and, as you pointed out, technology serves whomever happens to control it. So people who control technology should use it to try to help other people. I realize it doesn't often work out that way, but I see no reason to give up on the ideal. In the end, it's in the interest of those who control the technology to make the end-users happy. If everyone actually turned off all push notifications, companies that send push notifications would have a useless channel. It's not in their interest to spam people, and from personal experiences I can say that I think most of them know that. The tool set for sending smart notifications has just been incredibly limiting until recently.
    - npteljes 4y ago
      >I see no reason to give up on the ideal. I don't, either, but this really depends on how one treats this ideal. Everything can and will be abused, so, simply not caring about this angle is irresponsible. Technology _can_ however also help people a lot, and I appreciate that about it. >In the end, it's in the interest of those who control the technology to make the end-users happy. That's definitely, provably, empirically untrue. Making the end user happy is just one of the ways that service providers can make money, they can also, for example, make them miserable in a specific way, and then offer the cure. They can also, for example, try to reach for a monopoly position. They can identify the true end users, and those who make the decisions for them - their managers, or regulators, for example, and use them to shove their service down their throat. There's plenty of ways to prevail that don't seek to create happiness, and they are often more in reach than providing happiness - including situations where the end users themselves don't strive for their own happiness, thereby rejecting the happier service or product. I kind of agree about it being a useless channel. So, why haven't everyone turned off their notifications? There are, for example, people so lonely that a device that competes for their attention doesn't seem like a bad idea. Others say that they don't mind, that they are so good at filtering out on the mental level that it doesn't affect them. And the list is endless - bottom line is, people often keep the defaults, and so, notifications reach a lot of people. Also, about turning it off - sometimes you just can't. Even if some callers annoy me a lot, I don't turn off my phone because there are callers that I expect a call from. So, I put up with the annoyance. (This story is for illustration.) So I'm in the camp that haven't turned off the notifications. TL;DR In my experience "tech = good" is naive. It's worthwhile to bother with technology, but it's far from an "inherently good" ideal.
schaunwheeler 4y ago
Lot of strong feelings here about push notifications :) I think it's worth pointing out that (1) there are many people out there who find push notifications useful or even desirable, and (2) push notifications don't need to suck. Most push notification are annoying nudges because tools that allow companies to send notifications only allow mindless mass blasts with maybe a bit of only-slightly-less-mindless segmentation scattered in. There are better ways to do it. I'm helping build one of those ways (aampe.com), but my point is that we should distinguish between the current state of the technology and the potential of the technology to meet a valid need.
- guitarbill 4y ago
  Lots of people find email "useful or even desirable". Same with SMS, phone calls, mail/letters. All have been abused by "marketing" to the point where they almost became or become useless. In some cases, workarounds were found so we can continue living our lives without spammers. I suppose it's inevitable that push notifications are no different. But the argument is still unconvincing.
  - schaunwheeler 4y ago
    Why should we assume that the way SMS, phones, mail, notifications and other channels have been handled in the past is the way they must always be handled? I work with a lot of those marketers. It's not like they're sitting in front of Braze in a black top-hat, twirling a curly mustache with their fingers, and saying "heh heh heh, how I can annoy all of my users today?" They hate that there isn't a better way to reach people. There are better ways - I know because I'm building one of them and can see how it reaches people when they want, about what they want, and as frequently as they want, and how the engagement and purchase rates are way higher for those individualized messages than they are for dumb blast messages. It's not inevitable that a tool with a glaring technical flaw must always have that technical flaw. Technical flaws can be fixed.
- RugnirViking 4y ago
  > Most push notification are annoying nudges because tools that allow companies to send notifications only allow mindless mass blasts How hard is it to accept that for a lot of this stuff, there is literally nobody that wants to recieve it. It's fly-tipping your junk into millions of people's gardens in the hope that 0.001% of them see it and it reminds them of something they had meant to do already... The tech you are talking about almost certainly raises this to an amazing 0.0012%, by the looks of it it primarily does this by changing around the composition of the trash heap occasionally. Until you invent telepathy, you will never be able to know who those vanishingly few people where recieving useless junk would remind them of something are
aedis 4y ago
Just make notification manager where I can see them all. Like RSS READER.
bioemerl 4y ago
I have an app that makes very valid use of push notifications on the web. This should be celebrated because now you can do more without diving into the shitty apple app store with it's 100 dollar a year fee.
bedane 4y ago
Thanks for contributing to making the web a worse place, little by little, brick by brick. It's still barely usable but I trust that one day you and your peers will manage to make it unusable at all.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
atum47 4y ago
I've been using push notifications for a while now. They can be very useful. I have a back end that send server events (PHP SSE) to my web app everytime a new there's a new entry on a DB, which triggers a push notification. That's how I did my sensor of presence [1] 1 - https://youtu.be/D4wimodtpKk https://youtu.be/D4wimodtpKk
cbeach 4y ago
I assume every service worker is constantly polling a server back-end, or, at least, has a long-running connection? There are hundreds of service workers installed for me in Chrome (see: chrome://serviceworker-internals/) I recall on iOS, Apple's infrastructure aggregates push notifications on the server-side, meaning an iPhone only has to maintain a connection to a single server for all push notifications. Are there any similar initiatives for the Push API? Or is it simply not a priority, given the looser bandwidth/CPU constraints on desktop computers?
- gsnedders 4y ago
  This isn't how it works at all; a server sends a message to a push service which then delivers it to the user agent. It is only once the user agent receives the message that it needs to start an installed service worker (if it isn't already running) to deliver the message in the form of the notification. (There's some interest in making it possible to send a notification directly via the push service without having the cost of starting a service worker, but that's future work.) In the Safari case, this push service is essentially the same as is used for native apps, and it will do the same aggregation as you see for other notification types.
simonsarris 4y ago
you can turn off these requests for all sites in: chrome://settings/content/notifications
MacroChip 4y ago
In my experience, web push notifications on Android do not show immediately (i.e. with high priority). They only show when your phone wakes. Does anyone know of a workaround for this?
otikik 4y ago
Deactivation of this feature, however, is done differently on every browser.
Dalewyn 4y ago
I can't recall a time, not even once, when I found pushnotifs in a browser useful or even desirable. Even on my phone I block 99% of them because it's all just noise.
- astura 4y ago
  I enable them for chat apps.
- shanebellone 4y ago
  "I can't recall a time, not even once, when I found pushnotifs in a browser useful or even desirable." Facts! It always feels intrusive. I have them blocked by default on mobile and desktop. However, I also have all notifications on my phone disabled as well as permanent do not disturb mode. Property should not make demands for attention.
- josephg 4y ago
  Yeah. I set my web browsers to auto-reject requests to enable notifications from web pages. Too many random news sites and things ask, and I never want notifications from any of the websites I visit. Web notifications are a hard no for me.
- tootie 4y ago
  My thought would be using it for business software, not consumers. Like service desk software or anything that currently relies on app notifications or emails. This would be simpler.
- andrewaylett 4y ago
  You are not me, obviously -- because I do find them useful. Not as often as many sites would like me to, but Firefox won't keep interrupting me after the first time I visit a site. Most of my phone notifications come in silently, and I won't tolerate spammy notifications, but I do want notifications for low priority/async operations so that I don't need to remember to check each app for anything actionable: the SRE book talks about "page", "ticket", and "log" messages; a noisy notification is a "page", a silent one is a "ticket", and if I want to see "log"-type messages then I can check the relevant app.
raizer88 4y ago
The only way this should work is by requesting a user input that explicitly comes from the user. No auto-popup. Right now push are so abused that I always disable it on every parent/friend/cat browser.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  But then it wouldn't be a "push" notification. It's called "push" because the service is "pushing" the notification onto the user, the user has no agency in the matter aside from straight up blocking/disabling them.
  - jwestbury 4y ago
    No, it's called push because of push/pull architecture. You can subscribe to have notifications pushed, which is a way you, as a user, can control the behaviour.
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      You essentially repeated what I said, other than implying the user had a choice in getting notifications pushed to him to start with.
      - Jcowell 4y ago
        The difference is the Initiation. Push notifications have nothing to do with the platform enforcing push upon the user. Your comment made it seem like it was.
- perryizgr8 4y ago
  And the website should get no indication about the sate of the notification settings.
- SquareWheel 4y ago
  Most browser vendors already do, or will soon require a user gesture to initiate. That doesn't mean that abuse will disappear, but it should help. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notifications_API/Using_the_Notifications_API#requesting_permission https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notificatio...
perryizgr8 4y ago
The first thing I do on any browser is to completely disable notifications, on PC and mobile both. There are zero legitimate use cases for this. If you need notifications, install an app.
- prmoustache 4y ago
  I have enabled notifications for only 2 things: outlook webmail and Microsoft Teams on my professional laptop (Linux user). I don't need those to be applications (teams app is a website anyway). I am glad the option exist and I am also happy I can choose to ignore that option for 99.99% of the websites I visit. Bottom line: choice is good as long as it is opt-in and not opt-out.
- suddenclarity 4y ago
  Why should every site be an app wrapper just to be able to notify you? The abuse is a serious problem that needs to be solved but I don't see more apps being the solution.
  - pzo 4y ago
    in the articles author says: > Safari for iOS and iPadOS supports push notifications as of version 16.4, but only for apps that were added to the Home Screen. Apple calls these Home Screen web apps This should be a good enough way to prevent abuse
- pzo 4y ago
  on desktop they are maybe not that useful but for mobile they can be occasionally useful: - ordering some food or pizza when you are just for short time in different city / country - I don't want to install some dedicated app that I won't use anymore in a week or two. - renting e-scooter when on vacation - again each country usually has different such e-bike providers. - local taxi app - uber / gojek /grab is not in every country
- pedrogpimenta 4y ago
  Why an app? An app has much more control over your phone without your knowledge. And this is also about desktop browsers, where there's less apps. I loathe notifications and turn 99% of them off, but there are use cases for this and I'm glad that Apple has finally caved in to better support web apps and not only their walled garden.
denton-scratch 4y ago
> These messages can be used to alert the user of new content or updates, remind them of upcoming events or deadlines, or provide other important information. Or even information that's not important, I guess. If a website has an update, well, sure they can "push" it; but why don't they just push it to their production server? It's obviously driven by the demands of advertisers, and any site that succeeds in pushing notifications my way is a site I won't be visiting again.
ammmir 4y ago
I never enable push notifications for any websites I visit, but I think, as a developer, it would be interesting to easily add push notifications for internal apps. i.e., stuff that one would use a Slack hook for, I'd rather have a homescreen web "app" that can send pushes natively (albeit via a third-party push broker) rather than having to either build your own native app or use a messaging platform.
rustybolt 4y ago
Push notifications need to die.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  Hard disagree. I want push notifications for my messengers and forums. Calm down and just turn them off in your settings.
  - rustybolt 4y ago
    I have done this for like 10 times already.
- npteljes 4y ago
  No, its abusers should die. Grabbing the attention when necessary is very useful. Regulation and user control are paramount however, otherwise it's just ripe avenue for abuse.
- charcircuit 4y ago
  How do you know when your favorite live streamers go live? Push notifications is the best solution to this problem.
  - atemerev 4y ago
    I watch and read everything on my own time whenever I like it, why would I ever interrupt my flow? Every distraction ruins my day.
    - zemo 4y ago
      I turn off all push notifications everywhere that aren’t direct messages from a person I know, but even still, I think you’re missing the point entirely here. You can’t watch a livestream on your own time, it being live is the whole point.
      - 4y ago
Eumenes 4y ago
We need modern Pop Ups!!
- lostfocus 4y ago
  Oh boy, do I have exciting news for you! https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/popover.html https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/popover.html
  - throw-ru-938 4y ago
    Your username does check out here.
sberder 4y ago
There's definitely a valid use case when building PWA apps. The problem in previous versions was the impossibility to change the notification service, it is now possible through the `PushManager`.
bearmode 4y ago
No, thank you
progbits 4y ago
> This web feature is now available in all three browser engines! I guess for practical purposes this is correct, but they should at least say "all major browser engines". There are others...
seydor 4y ago
It's a pity that the notification popups exist, they ruined notifications making them dead on arrival. It should be a browser setting UI somewhere so only motivated users can enable them. They can be useful. They should be an alternative to RSS. And they could remove a lot of bloat from app stores -- so many apps exist solely to capture the notifications channel
londons_explore 4y ago
I wish browsers would have some kind of reputation system for push notifications. If most other users find push messages from a site useful, then allow them. Otherwise, don't. Eg. Messages from ebay that say 'you won the auction, please pay now' might have the majority of users wanting. Whereas messages from engadget letting you know that there are 112 new trending articles might see a far lower user interaction rate. I would like the browser to have a setting "only allow push notifications from sites that the majority of other users interact with".
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure Chrome implements something like that. If you want such an experience, just deny notifications by default (it's a browser setting) and click the little icon in the address bar if you run into a site that you do want notifications from if ghee prompt doesn't show up.
- paulmeinshausen 4y ago
  It can be so much better than this. It doesn't have to be an average of most other users. It's perfectly feasible to run user-level optimisation that runs by modeling user preferences and propensities to respond and then letting those models manage the notifications. That's what we've built at www.aampe.com
noirscape 4y ago
Annoying fact is that every major browser silently installs itself into the startup process when you enable any browser push notification on Windows (with Edge being enabled for this by default iirc). If you're wondering why your only 2-year old Laptop is slowing down when you boot it up - this is why. Chances are that Edge, Firefox and/or Chrome all three decided that they should have the right to run a full instance of themselves when you boot up your PC because you enabled a notification for a site that doesn't ever send any to begin with. Browsers are heavy things to boot up (not to mention that in potato RAM environments, they eat through RAM like there's no tomorrow). To be clear, browsers being heavy applications is fine, it's one application where people tolerate it because of how versatile the browser is, but it is extremely frustrating when it results in the computer taking 5 minutes to sign in, when all they needed to do was quickly revise a Word document. The result is that people end up writing off perfectly serviceable laptops for something that is easily disabled in the task manager. This sorta thing really should get a big warning popup that if you enable it, it probably will end up slowing down your PC. I can't exactly celebrate the fact that all three major browser engines now pester users into slowing down their PCs. Otherwise, if your relatives/friends are complaining their laptop is slow (and you're the designated IT person), enjoy the free advice.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  In the same vein, I feel like persistent web workers need to be surfaced to the user more visibly than they are now, perhaps as a primary settings tab or something, and with periodic clean-up prompts from the browser (“foo.xyz has been running in the background for Y days without being used, would you like to stop it?”) because it seems to me that as things are currently at up, they’re gonna pile up indefinitely since there is no management to speak of. It also just seems kinda nutty that something that started running without my explicit permission can just hang around however long it wants to.
- mavhc 4y ago
  Why are you booting your laptop so often? Surely once a month or so to install updates is enough
  - 4y ago
bitL 4y ago
"Deliver timely and useful notifications to your users." - somehow I doubt the "useful" part. It's 99% just engagement noise to boost some PM bonus somewhere wasting precious time of users.

258 points by twapi 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Great, right when this stopped being a commercial goal because we explained to the execs that we couldn't do it . What a wonderful feature. I'm gonna just quit and tell the boss to have GPT write the fuckin code for this. I'm sure that'll work.

javajosh 4y ago

[flagged]

fassssst 4y ago
Push notifications are for popping a toast on the user’s device, like a new text message notification.
berdon 4y ago
The key difference is that push notification's backing "service" are out of band with the subscribers. Applications can subscribe to push notifications and get them even if they're off (the OS runs them and gives them the notification). WebSockets are closed if the app closes. A little to your point, the backing notification service might rely on WebSockets or polling, or a mixture of both, in implementation.
quotemstr 4y ago
> Or, in my own words, ignore Push notifications and just use WebSockets. I wonder whether all the people who blindly accept utter nonsense ChatGPT tells them were applying any critical thinking before the age of AI.
npteljes 4y ago
>Or, in my own words, ignore Push notifications and just use WebSockets. Battery consumption is a big difference between the two. To keep the connection open, you need constant connection with the radio hardware, keeping it running, having it actively reconnect etc. Push notifications don't need a continous connection, the provider just connects from time to time and delivers the notifications then. There's some latency involved, but the power consumption is orders of magnitude lower.

grose 4y ago

I have been waiting for this for a long time. I run a small forum and have maybe 10 core users who use it a lot. It is a recreation of a forgotten kind of old forum but with some modern features. I would like users to be able to opt-in to push notifications when someone replies to their post or when they get a private message. I get Patreon support that breaks even for server fees but otherwise it is a labor of love. I am currently using a Telegram bot to send users pushes but I was always hoping Safari would finally relent so I could use the real deal. Thank you, browser vendors. I agree with most of the comments here that push messages are generally evil but this is a huge boon for small niche websites like mine that don't have the resources to make a dedicated app.

focusedone 4y ago
This is the first legitimate excuse I've heard on the entire internet for browser push notifications.
- afavour 4y ago
  I’d love to receive things like “product shipped” notifications. I know I can get emails but my inbox is just a firehose, would be great to move crap like that out of it.
- c-hendricks 4y ago
  There's been discussion for years over web notifications and this is the first you've heard that people like to get notified when people respond to them?
  - soraminazuki 4y ago
    People have been putting up with large amounts of junk notifications for years. No one needs to wade through discussions to know how they'd feel when they're about to receive even more of them.
distantsounds 4y ago
yes, everything about this. for websites that still use forums (yes they are out there!) push notifications for quoted replies and direct messages would be extremely helpful. i believe push notifications are one of the largest reasons why forums died out in days of early smartphones - not having that instant feedback of interaction caused their own interactions to diminish as well. the need for dedicated apps on your smart phone is now almost unnecessary at this point, unless you're doing something extremely niche. what a win.

tonetheman 4y ago

[dead]

dathinab 4y ago

Nice, I do like it it had show quite useful for certain use cases. Pro: - notifications without needing a account (and e.g. giving them your mail) - notifications when you use a web app (e.g. mail), I just don't want to install a app for quite a bunch of things, best it also works in situations where you simply can't install an app (e.g. company computer) - less persistent/annoying then mail notifcation (through depends a bit on your OS notification manager) Cons: - less reliable - less persistent then mail notification - some sites try to push them on users, but then it's a pretty good indicator for which site not to use Os/User Specific: - I have seen cases where Windows displayed them quite intrusive and it was non obvious where they where coming from making it hard to disable them for a non tech versatile user. Especially when it came to web mail clients, web messenger clients and some simple entertainment sites they have shown quite useful to me while the sites I visit normally don't try to push them onto users in an annoying way.

agentdrtran 4y ago
also pro: notifications on iOS for things that won't pass apple's walled garden

berdon 4y ago

This is a major deal for progressive web apps (PWAs) replacing native mobile development. Most native mobile apps have been able to be replaced by a PWA for at least the last 5 years but couldn't, on iOS, if they needed notifications. Now we can say bye to all the native, cross-platform frameworks and just use PWAs.

vhiremath4 4y ago

Am I the only one who has basically disabled all notifications at this point? Even if I turned them on for a select few apps I would actually potentially want them for (Slack, email, Instagram), there is so much noise in those apps and I can’t differentiate between what I actually want: “send me Slack notifications if it seems urgent from my boss or team” “send me email notifications if it’s from a top enterprise customer” “send me Instagram DMs only if it’s from someone I’m interested in dating” ^ These are the kinds of notifications I would want to hit the push threshold but there’s no way to do that. Maybe a useful application of LLMs?

JohnFen 4y ago
> Am I the only one who has basically disabled all notifications at this point Nope. I disable all notifications as well. The small handful of somewhat useful ones aren't worth the annoying and distracting cascade of completely worthless ones.
alistairSH 4y ago
Nope, I have very few notifications allowed on my personal devices. Basically Messages/SMS and phone. And those are set to vibrate/visual, no sound. Work laptop also has email and Slack visuals, no sound. And I use Focus/Sleep to eliminate all (except wife/kid/parents) notifications from 9pm to 7am. Edit - I can think of only 2-3 apps that send push notifications and they're mostly fitness related. The notifications are generally of the type "your workout was synced" and the only reason I leave these up is I use 3-4 apps and when they don't sync, I want to manually force a re-sync. None send random "we've updated a thing!" messages (and if they did, I disable the notifications). I absolutely do NOT want random, unscheduled notifications that aren't directly related to something I did/am doing.
- dymk 4y ago
  I don't understand how it's acceptable for apps like Uber or DoorDash to deliver to me an unprompted ad, pushed into my notifications center. It's always something like "10% off your order for the next day!" or "Try this new pass thing!". Firstly, that's a guaranteed way for me to disable all notifications from the app, if not uninstall it. Secondly, how is that not a violation of some sort of Apple Developer Guideline? I wish they'd crack down on that sort of thing.

anonyfox 4y ago

From the business side, all cases I remember why management decided to have some "native app" (even if its just a wrapped web app), is because they REALLY want notifications. (ignoring for a moment most users don't want them :-) ) So, does wthis mean we finally have the moment in time where PWAs start to be the best default choice instead of an appstore-app? I would appeciate that! Too bad we're entering a time right now where the concept of "frontend engineering" evaporates in favor of Chat-UX :/

weatherlight 4y ago

This is a step in the right direction. Now that they are standardized across all modern browsers, standards around their governance will follow.

julianlam 4y ago

This is great news... Unfortunate as I used to be bullish on browser based push notifications, but in reality they were never working reliably on mobile devices. I use a web API for my SMS gateway, and implemented push notifications via Firebase. It didn't matter whether I was using Fennec/Firefox, Chrome, or Vivaldi, I would always cease to be notified the moment the browser was killed off by my phone. I eventually got sick of it and ported the logic over to call ntfy.sh instead. Not a single missed message since.

MacroChip 4y ago
I've had no issue with Firebase on a personal project just pushing to my android. The big caveat is that the push doesn't wake the phone. So all notifications drop in when I click the screen on.

ar9av 4y ago

Apple supports them now. Everyone else has been doing it for years.

quyleanh 4y ago

With more and more update recently, it's seems that Apple doesn't want to get another EU compliance rule of default browser?

jmull 4y ago

> Push messages can be particularly useful for applications that need to deliver timely, relevant information to their users, such as news or sports apps, or for e-commerce websites that want to send users notifications about special offers or sales. Sure, they have their uses… but web sites will send far more notifications than anyone wants to receive. People would enjoy a drinking fountain but get a fire hose. I don’t even think about it. I just click “no” (and curse under my breath for even making me do that) and move on.

paulmeinshausen 4y ago
[flagged]
- aerzen 4y ago
  I dont consider my phone to be out of date, but this website you linked is way too much for it. Laggy, takes 10sec to load and then asks for cookies before I even see what it is about. Nope.
- haspok 4y ago
  > Aampe adds AI and ML optimization to your existing marketing stack, so you can send better messages in hours, not months. Nice try, buddy. It is not a "tooling problem", it is a GTF-off-my-lawn problem.
  - paulmeinshausen 4y ago
    And ML can help recognise users who feel that way and "get off their lawn" faster. It's absolutely a tooling problem.
    - haspok 4y ago
      You are overcomplicating it. User turns off notifications permanently (in Firefox, the setting is called "Block new requests asking to allow notifications"), problem solved. No tooling needed!
    - 4y ago

hartator 4y ago

How is that good? New ways to spam us?

paulmeinshausen 4y ago

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npteljes 4y ago
>technology is supposed to help its users Now that's a huge misconception. It isn't in technology's nature to take sides, and it's also not regulated to do that, and neither do technologists have a universal moral stance that would support that. So in the end, technology serves whomever happens to control it, and circling back to notifications, currently service providers seem to have the biggest say in how many notifications go around.
- schaunwheeler 4y ago
  It's in people's nature to take sides, and, as you pointed out, technology serves whomever happens to control it. So people who control technology should use it to try to help other people. I realize it doesn't often work out that way, but I see no reason to give up on the ideal. In the end, it's in the interest of those who control the technology to make the end-users happy. If everyone actually turned off all push notifications, companies that send push notifications would have a useless channel. It's not in their interest to spam people, and from personal experiences I can say that I think most of them know that. The tool set for sending smart notifications has just been incredibly limiting until recently.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    >I see no reason to give up on the ideal. I don't, either, but this really depends on how one treats this ideal. Everything can and will be abused, so, simply not caring about this angle is irresponsible. Technology _can_ however also help people a lot, and I appreciate that about it. >In the end, it's in the interest of those who control the technology to make the end-users happy. That's definitely, provably, empirically untrue. Making the end user happy is just one of the ways that service providers can make money, they can also, for example, make them miserable in a specific way, and then offer the cure. They can also, for example, try to reach for a monopoly position. They can identify the true end users, and those who make the decisions for them - their managers, or regulators, for example, and use them to shove their service down their throat. There's plenty of ways to prevail that don't seek to create happiness, and they are often more in reach than providing happiness - including situations where the end users themselves don't strive for their own happiness, thereby rejecting the happier service or product. I kind of agree about it being a useless channel. So, why haven't everyone turned off their notifications? There are, for example, people so lonely that a device that competes for their attention doesn't seem like a bad idea. Others say that they don't mind, that they are so good at filtering out on the mental level that it doesn't affect them. And the list is endless - bottom line is, people often keep the defaults, and so, notifications reach a lot of people. Also, about turning it off - sometimes you just can't. Even if some callers annoy me a lot, I don't turn off my phone because there are callers that I expect a call from. So, I put up with the annoyance. (This story is for illustration.) So I'm in the camp that haven't turned off the notifications. TL;DR In my experience "tech = good" is naive. It's worthwhile to bother with technology, but it's far from an "inherently good" ideal.

schaunwheeler 4y ago

Lot of strong feelings here about push notifications :) I think it's worth pointing out that (1) there are many people out there who find push notifications useful or even desirable, and (2) push notifications don't need to suck. Most push notification are annoying nudges because tools that allow companies to send notifications only allow mindless mass blasts with maybe a bit of only-slightly-less-mindless segmentation scattered in. There are better ways to do it. I'm helping build one of those ways (aampe.com), but my point is that we should distinguish between the current state of the technology and the potential of the technology to meet a valid need.

guitarbill 4y ago
Lots of people find email "useful or even desirable". Same with SMS, phone calls, mail/letters. All have been abused by "marketing" to the point where they almost became or become useless. In some cases, workarounds were found so we can continue living our lives without spammers. I suppose it's inevitable that push notifications are no different. But the argument is still unconvincing.
- schaunwheeler 4y ago
  Why should we assume that the way SMS, phones, mail, notifications and other channels have been handled in the past is the way they must always be handled? I work with a lot of those marketers. It's not like they're sitting in front of Braze in a black top-hat, twirling a curly mustache with their fingers, and saying "heh heh heh, how I can annoy all of my users today?" They hate that there isn't a better way to reach people. There are better ways - I know because I'm building one of them and can see how it reaches people when they want, about what they want, and as frequently as they want, and how the engagement and purchase rates are way higher for those individualized messages than they are for dumb blast messages. It's not inevitable that a tool with a glaring technical flaw must always have that technical flaw. Technical flaws can be fixed.
RugnirViking 4y ago
> Most push notification are annoying nudges because tools that allow companies to send notifications only allow mindless mass blasts How hard is it to accept that for a lot of this stuff, there is literally nobody that wants to recieve it. It's fly-tipping your junk into millions of people's gardens in the hope that 0.001% of them see it and it reminds them of something they had meant to do already... The tech you are talking about almost certainly raises this to an amazing 0.0012%, by the looks of it it primarily does this by changing around the composition of the trash heap occasionally. Until you invent telepathy, you will never be able to know who those vanishingly few people where recieving useless junk would remind them of something are

aedis 4y ago

Just make notification manager where I can see them all. Like RSS READER.

bioemerl 4y ago

I have an app that makes very valid use of push notifications on the web. This should be celebrated because now you can do more without diving into the shitty apple app store with it's 100 dollar a year fee.

bedane 4y ago

Thanks for contributing to making the web a worse place, little by little, brick by brick. It's still barely usable but I trust that one day you and your peers will manage to make it unusable at all.

deleted 4y ago

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atum47 4y ago

I've been using push notifications for a while now. They can be very useful. I have a back end that send server events (PHP SSE) to my web app everytime a new there's a new entry on a DB, which triggers a push notification. That's how I did my sensor of presence [1] 1 - https://youtu.be/D4wimodtpKk https://youtu.be/D4wimodtpKk

cbeach 4y ago

I assume every service worker is constantly polling a server back-end, or, at least, has a long-running connection? There are hundreds of service workers installed for me in Chrome (see: chrome://serviceworker-internals/) I recall on iOS, Apple's infrastructure aggregates push notifications on the server-side, meaning an iPhone only has to maintain a connection to a single server for all push notifications. Are there any similar initiatives for the Push API? Or is it simply not a priority, given the looser bandwidth/CPU constraints on desktop computers?

gsnedders 4y ago
This isn't how it works at all; a server sends a message to a push service which then delivers it to the user agent. It is only once the user agent receives the message that it needs to start an installed service worker (if it isn't already running) to deliver the message in the form of the notification. (There's some interest in making it possible to send a notification directly via the push service without having the cost of starting a service worker, but that's future work.) In the Safari case, this push service is essentially the same as is used for native apps, and it will do the same aggregation as you see for other notification types.

simonsarris 4y ago

you can turn off these requests for all sites in: chrome://settings/content/notifications

MacroChip 4y ago

In my experience, web push notifications on Android do not show immediately (i.e. with high priority). They only show when your phone wakes. Does anyone know of a workaround for this?

otikik 4y ago

Deactivation of this feature, however, is done differently on every browser.

Dalewyn 4y ago

I can't recall a time, not even once, when I found pushnotifs in a browser useful or even desirable. Even on my phone I block 99% of them because it's all just noise.

astura 4y ago
I enable them for chat apps.
shanebellone 4y ago
"I can't recall a time, not even once, when I found pushnotifs in a browser useful or even desirable." Facts! It always feels intrusive. I have them blocked by default on mobile and desktop. However, I also have all notifications on my phone disabled as well as permanent do not disturb mode. Property should not make demands for attention.
josephg 4y ago
Yeah. I set my web browsers to auto-reject requests to enable notifications from web pages. Too many random news sites and things ask, and I never want notifications from any of the websites I visit. Web notifications are a hard no for me.
tootie 4y ago
My thought would be using it for business software, not consumers. Like service desk software or anything that currently relies on app notifications or emails. This would be simpler.
andrewaylett 4y ago
You are not me, obviously -- because I do find them useful. Not as often as many sites would like me to, but Firefox won't keep interrupting me after the first time I visit a site. Most of my phone notifications come in silently, and I won't tolerate spammy notifications, but I do want notifications for low priority/async operations so that I don't need to remember to check each app for anything actionable: the SRE book talks about "page", "ticket", and "log" messages; a noisy notification is a "page", a silent one is a "ticket", and if I want to see "log"-type messages then I can check the relevant app.

raizer88 4y ago

The only way this should work is by requesting a user input that explicitly comes from the user. No auto-popup. Right now push are so abused that I always disable it on every parent/friend/cat browser.

Dalewyn 4y ago
But then it wouldn't be a "push" notification. It's called "push" because the service is "pushing" the notification onto the user, the user has no agency in the matter aside from straight up blocking/disabling them.
- jwestbury 4y ago
  No, it's called push because of push/pull architecture. You can subscribe to have notifications pushed, which is a way you, as a user, can control the behaviour.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    You essentially repeated what I said, other than implying the user had a choice in getting notifications pushed to him to start with.
    - Jcowell 4y ago
      The difference is the Initiation. Push notifications have nothing to do with the platform enforcing push upon the user. Your comment made it seem like it was.
perryizgr8 4y ago
And the website should get no indication about the sate of the notification settings.
SquareWheel 4y ago
Most browser vendors already do, or will soon require a user gesture to initiate. That doesn't mean that abuse will disappear, but it should help. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notifications_API/Using_the_Notifications_API#requesting_permission https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Notificatio...

perryizgr8 4y ago

The first thing I do on any browser is to completely disable notifications, on PC and mobile both. There are zero legitimate use cases for this. If you need notifications, install an app.

prmoustache 4y ago
I have enabled notifications for only 2 things: outlook webmail and Microsoft Teams on my professional laptop (Linux user). I don't need those to be applications (teams app is a website anyway). I am glad the option exist and I am also happy I can choose to ignore that option for 99.99% of the websites I visit. Bottom line: choice is good as long as it is opt-in and not opt-out.
suddenclarity 4y ago
Why should every site be an app wrapper just to be able to notify you? The abuse is a serious problem that needs to be solved but I don't see more apps being the solution.
- pzo 4y ago
  in the articles author says: > Safari for iOS and iPadOS supports push notifications as of version 16.4, but only for apps that were added to the Home Screen. Apple calls these Home Screen web apps This should be a good enough way to prevent abuse
pzo 4y ago
on desktop they are maybe not that useful but for mobile they can be occasionally useful: - ordering some food or pizza when you are just for short time in different city / country - I don't want to install some dedicated app that I won't use anymore in a week or two. - renting e-scooter when on vacation - again each country usually has different such e-bike providers. - local taxi app - uber / gojek /grab is not in every country
pedrogpimenta 4y ago
Why an app? An app has much more control over your phone without your knowledge. And this is also about desktop browsers, where there's less apps. I loathe notifications and turn 99% of them off, but there are use cases for this and I'm glad that Apple has finally caved in to better support web apps and not only their walled garden.

denton-scratch 4y ago

> These messages can be used to alert the user of new content or updates, remind them of upcoming events or deadlines, or provide other important information. Or even information that's not important, I guess. If a website has an update, well, sure they can "push" it; but why don't they just push it to their production server? It's obviously driven by the demands of advertisers, and any site that succeeds in pushing notifications my way is a site I won't be visiting again.

ammmir 4y ago

I never enable push notifications for any websites I visit, but I think, as a developer, it would be interesting to easily add push notifications for internal apps. i.e., stuff that one would use a Slack hook for, I'd rather have a homescreen web "app" that can send pushes natively (albeit via a third-party push broker) rather than having to either build your own native app or use a messaging platform.

rustybolt 4y ago

Push notifications need to die.

jeroenhd 4y ago
Hard disagree. I want push notifications for my messengers and forums. Calm down and just turn them off in your settings.
- rustybolt 4y ago
  I have done this for like 10 times already.
npteljes 4y ago
No, its abusers should die. Grabbing the attention when necessary is very useful. Regulation and user control are paramount however, otherwise it's just ripe avenue for abuse.
charcircuit 4y ago
How do you know when your favorite live streamers go live? Push notifications is the best solution to this problem.
- atemerev 4y ago
  I watch and read everything on my own time whenever I like it, why would I ever interrupt my flow? Every distraction ruins my day.
  - zemo 4y ago
    I turn off all push notifications everywhere that aren’t direct messages from a person I know, but even still, I think you’re missing the point entirely here. You can’t watch a livestream on your own time, it being live is the whole point.
    - 4y ago

Eumenes 4y ago

We need modern Pop Ups!!

lostfocus 4y ago
Oh boy, do I have exciting news for you! https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/popover.html https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/popover.html
- throw-ru-938 4y ago
  Your username does check out here.

sberder 4y ago

There's definitely a valid use case when building PWA apps. The problem in previous versions was the impossibility to change the notification service, it is now possible through the `PushManager`.

bearmode 4y ago

No, thank you

progbits 4y ago

> This web feature is now available in all three browser engines! I guess for practical purposes this is correct, but they should at least say "all major browser engines". There are others...

seydor 4y ago

It's a pity that the notification popups exist, they ruined notifications making them dead on arrival. It should be a browser setting UI somewhere so only motivated users can enable them. They can be useful. They should be an alternative to RSS. And they could remove a lot of bloat from app stores -- so many apps exist solely to capture the notifications channel

londons_explore 4y ago

I wish browsers would have some kind of reputation system for push notifications. If most other users find push messages from a site useful, then allow them. Otherwise, don't. Eg. Messages from ebay that say 'you won the auction, please pay now' might have the majority of users wanting. Whereas messages from engadget letting you know that there are 112 new trending articles might see a far lower user interaction rate. I would like the browser to have a setting "only allow push notifications from sites that the majority of other users interact with".

jeroenhd 4y ago
I'm pretty sure Chrome implements something like that. If you want such an experience, just deny notifications by default (it's a browser setting) and click the little icon in the address bar if you run into a site that you do want notifications from if ghee prompt doesn't show up.
paulmeinshausen 4y ago
It can be so much better than this. It doesn't have to be an average of most other users. It's perfectly feasible to run user-level optimisation that runs by modeling user preferences and propensities to respond and then letting those models manage the notifications. That's what we've built at www.aampe.com

noirscape 4y ago

Annoying fact is that every major browser silently installs itself into the startup process when you enable any browser push notification on Windows (with Edge being enabled for this by default iirc). If you're wondering why your only 2-year old Laptop is slowing down when you boot it up - this is why. Chances are that Edge, Firefox and/or Chrome all three decided that they should have the right to run a full instance of themselves when you boot up your PC because you enabled a notification for a site that doesn't ever send any to begin with. Browsers are heavy things to boot up (not to mention that in potato RAM environments, they eat through RAM like there's no tomorrow). To be clear, browsers being heavy applications is fine, it's one application where people tolerate it because of how versatile the browser is, but it is extremely frustrating when it results in the computer taking 5 minutes to sign in, when all they needed to do was quickly revise a Word document. The result is that people end up writing off perfectly serviceable laptops for something that is easily disabled in the task manager. This sorta thing really should get a big warning popup that if you enable it, it probably will end up slowing down your PC. I can't exactly celebrate the fact that all three major browser engines now pester users into slowing down their PCs. Otherwise, if your relatives/friends are complaining their laptop is slow (and you're the designated IT person), enjoy the free advice.

kitsunesoba 4y ago
In the same vein, I feel like persistent web workers need to be surfaced to the user more visibly than they are now, perhaps as a primary settings tab or something, and with periodic clean-up prompts from the browser (“foo.xyz has been running in the background for Y days without being used, would you like to stop it?”) because it seems to me that as things are currently at up, they’re gonna pile up indefinitely since there is no management to speak of. It also just seems kinda nutty that something that started running without my explicit permission can just hang around however long it wants to.
mavhc 4y ago
Why are you booting your laptop so often? Surely once a month or so to install updates is enough
- 4y ago

bitL 4y ago

"Deliver timely and useful notifications to your users." - somehow I doubt the "useful" part. It's 99% just engagement noise to boost some PM bonus somewhere wasting precious time of users.