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The discussion around plants, meat and dairy need to become much more nuanced. Let's take dairy as an example - has a great effect in boosting mTORC1 activity

The discussion around plants, meat and dairy need to become much more nuanced. Let's take dairy as an example - has a great effect in boosting mTORC1 activity which causes better growth in children. Now, a non-insignificant set of people who have bought into zealous veganry are raising children who will be physically more fragile just because they've been marketed with the idea that dairy == bad. On the other hand, overactivation of mTORC1 is a driver of "growth-related diseases" like cancer, which suggests you should limit it post-adolescence. In conclusion, I think it is right for us not to listen to political panels who are sticking their finger up in the air to measure what is the politically correct thing to say today and prescribe policies based on that. People should have the freedom to research and choose. I am a layman on this topic; feel free to correct any errors in my claims.

cinntaile 4y ago
> I am a layman on this topic; feel free to correct any errors in my claims. This isn't how this works. You should back up your own claims with sources.
- realworldperson 4y ago
  [dead]
at_compile_time 4y ago
mTOR makes children grow faster, but everything I've heard suggests that it doesn't make them any taller as adults. Meanwhile, obesity rates in children keep growing, and atherogenesis doesn't wait until adulthood. Heart disease and cancer are still the leading causes of death in America. COVID's taken the #3 spot, which affected those with obesity and diabetes much more than those without, but I don't expect it to stick around on this list. Somehow, frailty due to not eating meat didn't make the top 10. If we want kids to be strong and healthy, get them outside and get them moving. No diet will see them healthy if they're sedentary.
- waihtis 4y ago
  indeed, that is a good addition / counterpoint.
tsimionescu 4y ago
You should note that large parts of the world's population have never consumed dairy throughout their history (except as infants, of course), and are still doing very well today (China being the largest such group). I don't think this is a good line of argument.
- cfn 4y ago
  But they certainly are not vegan.
  - sprucevoid 4y ago
    But GP was making a claim specifically about dairy.
000ooo000 4y ago
You concede being a layman yet lay out a conclusion as though you are not. Was there any real point to your comment beyond taking a stab at 'zealous vegans'?
- waihtis 4y ago
  The point was that black-and-white thinking / reducing decisions to be made over single variables leads to suboptimal outcomes. Please try a bit harder to be generous with your reading interpretation.
  - maeil 4y ago
    Your comment does not show that there is any "black-and-white thinking" is taking place here, or if it is, that it is unfounded. Even with a generous interpretation, there's no relevancy to be found.
    - waihtis 4y ago
      Sure it is, it's saying that a diet which is "good"* for the planet at 10 billion people automatically translates to the optimal diet for one person. It's a completely different scale and matter. * (without considering any emissions or other negatives caused by shipping perishable vegetables halfway across the planet)
  - 000ooo000 4y ago
    It doesn't deserve a generous interpretation; it began with a generalisation about a group of people and an unfounded assertion.
    - waihtis 4y ago
      Ah, you're a troll, never mind.
asterix_pano 4y ago
I have looked extensively for this and there is no study that shows that vegan children will be more fragile. Often they boast healthier cholesterol levels and body fat and better nutrient levels. And then, if that were true, is it better to be bigger? Dairy and meat increase the risk of developing cancers and cardiovascular diseases. Is it worth it?
- imeron 4y ago
  The brain contains approximately 20% of whole body cholesterol, you can't get away with not eating fats. Your brain needs fats.
  - mokkol 4y ago
    Who says fats are only in meat and dairy? They are in many plant based sources that contain large amounts of fats. Just to name a couple: Nuts, seeds, fruits(avocado, olives, coconut)
    - waihtis 4y ago
      all ecologically incredibly viable to be produced and transported across the world in gigantic container ships
jmkr 4y ago
I have no idea what mTORC1, but this post is in bad faith. > Now, a non-insignificant set of people who have bought into zealous veganry are raising children who will be physically more fragile just because they've been marketed with the idea that dairy == bad. > It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/ There's plenty of sources saying a properly planned vegan diet is fine. Lots of vegans take supplements, and lots of food is fortified.
sprucevoid 4y ago
> feel free to correct any errors in my claims What you say about mTORC1 is not supported by the leading academic researcher organizations in the field of nutrition. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/ "It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes." If you think you have greater scientific expertize about this then I urge you to pursue a career in the related fields, publish your scientific evidence in the top journals and eventually change the recommendations. Until you accomplish that me and everyone else reading this should rely on the position cited above. > political panels who are sticking their finger up in the air ... That is not the situation here. The climate policy recommendations on eating are based on the best current scientific evidence. See https://eatforum.org/eat-lancet-commission/ https://eatforum.org/eat-lancet-commission/
- GoblinSlayer 4y ago
  How many people have great scientific expertize to appropriately plan their diets if half of them believe in geocentrism?
- waihtis 4y ago
  Your linked paper doesn't reference mTORC1 a single time. Moreover, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics has faced numerous criticisms about it's close ties to corporate groups such as McDonald's, Coca-Cola, Mars, and others.* It is fully within their interest to state "vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements" (a direct quote from your linked paper) as it supports the business models of their corporate partners. *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Nutrition_and_Dietetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Nutrition_and_Diete...
  - at_compile_time 4y ago
    Interests aside, it is very important that everyone has B12 in their diet. Most people get it from animal products, so vegans need to be sure they're getting it from somewhere. Without B12, all of the health benefits of lower BMI, higher dietary fiber, and lower saturated fat and dietary cholesterol will be offset by higher stroke risk.

cinntaile 4y ago

> I am a layman on this topic; feel free to correct any errors in my claims. This isn't how this works. You should back up your own claims with sources.

realworldperson 4y ago
[dead]

at_compile_time 4y ago

mTOR makes children grow faster, but everything I've heard suggests that it doesn't make them any taller as adults. Meanwhile, obesity rates in children keep growing, and atherogenesis doesn't wait until adulthood. Heart disease and cancer are still the leading causes of death in America. COVID's taken the #3 spot, which affected those with obesity and diabetes much more than those without, but I don't expect it to stick around on this list. Somehow, frailty due to not eating meat didn't make the top 10. If we want kids to be strong and healthy, get them outside and get them moving. No diet will see them healthy if they're sedentary.

waihtis 4y ago
indeed, that is a good addition / counterpoint.

tsimionescu 4y ago

You should note that large parts of the world's population have never consumed dairy throughout their history (except as infants, of course), and are still doing very well today (China being the largest such group). I don't think this is a good line of argument.

cfn 4y ago
But they certainly are not vegan.
- sprucevoid 4y ago
  But GP was making a claim specifically about dairy.

000ooo000 4y ago

You concede being a layman yet lay out a conclusion as though you are not. Was there any real point to your comment beyond taking a stab at 'zealous vegans'?

waihtis 4y ago
The point was that black-and-white thinking / reducing decisions to be made over single variables leads to suboptimal outcomes. Please try a bit harder to be generous with your reading interpretation.
- maeil 4y ago
  Your comment does not show that there is any "black-and-white thinking" is taking place here, or if it is, that it is unfounded. Even with a generous interpretation, there's no relevancy to be found.
  - waihtis 4y ago
    Sure it is, it's saying that a diet which is "good"* for the planet at 10 billion people automatically translates to the optimal diet for one person. It's a completely different scale and matter. * (without considering any emissions or other negatives caused by shipping perishable vegetables halfway across the planet)
- 000ooo000 4y ago
  It doesn't deserve a generous interpretation; it began with a generalisation about a group of people and an unfounded assertion.
  - waihtis 4y ago
    Ah, you're a troll, never mind.

asterix_pano 4y ago

I have looked extensively for this and there is no study that shows that vegan children will be more fragile. Often they boast healthier cholesterol levels and body fat and better nutrient levels. And then, if that were true, is it better to be bigger? Dairy and meat increase the risk of developing cancers and cardiovascular diseases. Is it worth it?

imeron 4y ago
The brain contains approximately 20% of whole body cholesterol, you can't get away with not eating fats. Your brain needs fats.
- mokkol 4y ago
  Who says fats are only in meat and dairy? They are in many plant based sources that contain large amounts of fats. Just to name a couple: Nuts, seeds, fruits(avocado, olives, coconut)
  - waihtis 4y ago
    all ecologically incredibly viable to be produced and transported across the world in gigantic container ships

jmkr 4y ago

I have no idea what mTORC1, but this post is in bad faith. > Now, a non-insignificant set of people who have bought into zealous veganry are raising children who will be physically more fragile just because they've been marketed with the idea that dairy == bad. > It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/ There's plenty of sources saying a properly planned vegan diet is fine. Lots of vegans take supplements, and lots of food is fortified.

sprucevoid 4y ago

> feel free to correct any errors in my claims What you say about mTORC1 is not supported by the leading academic researcher organizations in the field of nutrition. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/ "It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes." If you think you have greater scientific expertize about this then I urge you to pursue a career in the related fields, publish your scientific evidence in the top journals and eventually change the recommendations. Until you accomplish that me and everyone else reading this should rely on the position cited above. > political panels who are sticking their finger up in the air ... That is not the situation here. The climate policy recommendations on eating are based on the best current scientific evidence. See https://eatforum.org/eat-lancet-commission/ https://eatforum.org/eat-lancet-commission/

GoblinSlayer 4y ago
How many people have great scientific expertize to appropriately plan their diets if half of them believe in geocentrism?
waihtis 4y ago
Your linked paper doesn't reference mTORC1 a single time. Moreover, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics has faced numerous criticisms about it's close ties to corporate groups such as McDonald's, Coca-Cola, Mars, and others.* It is fully within their interest to state "vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements" (a direct quote from your linked paper) as it supports the business models of their corporate partners. *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Nutrition_and_Dietetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Nutrition_and_Diete...
- at_compile_time 4y ago
  Interests aside, it is very important that everyone has B12 in their diet. Most people get it from animal products, so vegans need to be sure they're getting it from somewhere. Without B12, all of the health benefits of lower BMI, higher dietary fiber, and lower saturated fat and dietary cholesterol will be offset by higher stroke risk.