4 ms·

Is that really all to it? Look at Germany, it's pretty stable if you are a wage earner, especially if you have an engineering diploma. They don't make more kids

by Glawen 4y ago

Is that really all to it? Look at Germany, it's pretty stable if you are a wage earner, especially if you have an engineering diploma. They don't make more kids even though they are safe, and they have generous paternity leave. There is something else going on, I feel a kind of ambiant negativity induced by the global warming news, which seem to block people to have kids.

zo1 4y ago
It's a huge host of reasons and they all have a tiny cumulative effect. Also after a while it also reaches a tipping point in that "all my friends aren't having kids so why should I". The reasons vary based on who you ask and their bias. My bias will be obvious. Here's my list: - War on traditional family values. That includes marriage and having kids. - War on men. - Toxic and degenerate pop culture promoted to teens. - Hookup culture, dating apps, easy and promoted and celebrated divorces - Daddy government is there aleays to provide a huge cushion for badly picked marriages. For women at least. - Men are scared away from marriage due to the legal system being skewed against them. - Promotion and glorification of party culture. Having kids and a stable marriage is Hard. If everything is handed on a platter to you from an early age and you're shielded from the realities and difficulties of life, this is going to seem like a huge life decision that is too hard. - We don't realize how much our collective fiddling and tweaking with various parts of our world with laws and incentives is having on society and culture. We're fucking it up royally. Just look at how degenerate pop culture is atm, and look at it honestly, and wonder if it's healthy for society on the aggregate.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  Most of my friends have been married or in long term relationships for at least a decade now. None are divorced. With one exception none have children and we're all approaching 40. Your list doesn't address why my peer group is choosing not to have kids.
  - zo1 4y ago
    I don't know what to tell you. My guess would be that they all enjoy the leisure lifestyle that's not disturbed by children. Maybe they're scared of having children by the possibility of them being bullied at school due to the prevalence of thug culture? School shootings? Maybe Greta and that camp have them so scared that they'll be destroying the environment by having kids? Maybe they are guilted by woke culture about being white so they want to wipe out their own race. Who knows. At the end of the day. Ask them why. Then poke and prod till they tell you the core of why they think that way. Then see what in recent culture or happenings might have caused them to think that way.
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      I'm not at a loss as to why my friends aren't having kids. I'm at a loss as to why you think your list is relevant to why my friends are having kids. You've produced a fine list of culture war talking points but none of the simple stuff. No talk of economic problems or people not wanting to continue the same destructive cycles and finally feeling like they have the option. Instead it's all "Greta" and "woke culture" and "white guilt".
      - zo1 4y ago
        My comments seem not welcome to you. Speak to your friends, as I won't engage further in an antagonizing discussion that seems to be turning personal with you.
        SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
        Well, in this case the choices are personal as they are effecting myself, my wife, and my friends. I suppose it's understandable to feel OK infantilizing people and making arguments around culture war hot topics if you're not personally involved, but the implication that it's something like white guilt or the war on men is detached, disrespectful, and antagonizing.
- softsound 4y ago
  I think some elements of this are true, and yes I think culture plays a big part in it. I am sorta on the opposite side of this I want to have kids, get married, I'm willing to support my husband if I make more then him (whenever I get one), but I feel like I'm just not stable enough yet. Most of my tech jobs are short lived, I'm also trying to run my own business and just don't have the time to do a lot right now. I grew up with parents with hugh issues with money and they divorced and I don't want that for my future. I don't want to fight over money or jobs or small stupid stuff that doesn't matter in life. I think honestly a lot of people just don't feel like they are in a stable position, we also don't have strong communities anymore that helps out when stuff does get hard like marriage or raising kids. I think honestly a lot of people are really lonely and just live with it because they don't know how to fix it. We don't have systems or places in place that make it easy to hang out nor do we have the time nowadays. Or at least I don't. I'm in my 30's though and I'm in a long distance relationship but it sounds really hard to imagine actually getting married anytime soon I just have so much going on. I really believe people want to feel loved and have someone to love, I think a lot of our society now though is hyper competitive, commercialized and no longer built for families. People don't trust anymore and it's a fear driven culture.
LikesPwsh 4y ago
Increased education requirements to not live in poverty is the #1 reason in my opinion. When parents expected young children to perform unpaid manual labor the net cost of upbringing was negligible or even profitable. Now many people only start earning at 21 or later, and aren't even able to support their parents at the point due to the huge size of mortgage and college loans.
carlmr 4y ago
>Look at Germany, it's pretty stable if you are a wage earner, especially if you have an engineering diploma. They don't make more kids even though they are safe, and they have generous paternity leave. Even for those stable engineers, it's hard to afford a home. Also you start earning money late at 25, because you needed those pesky degrees. Now you are 30, have a modicum of money, and want to live a little first. So you have fun until 35. Now you're looking for a life partner, you find them at 40. But you need to be financially stable, so you save up for a downpayment, you wait a few years until 45 to start a family. You now notice you can't have kids because you're too old. The end.
- kkfdkerpoe 4y ago
  Studying AND "living a little" at the same time isn't that hard with all the exchange programs EU universities provide. Traveling within Europe is also very cheap. It's mainly just an excuse for people who don't want children that much, which is now more common due to cultural changes as well. Expensive housing on the other hand is a real problem. Requiring a long degree for nearly everything is also dumb.
  - carlmr 4y ago
    I could barely survive on the money I was able to earn during uni. Bafög was denied but parents couldn't support me properly either. So no, I couldn't live a little in uni. I needed a proper salary for that.
- Glawen 4y ago
  I ask my young colleagues in their late 20s early 30s why they don't make kids. They say they don't feel like it, they are afraid of the commitment and prefer to have fun. How long is the fun supposed to be is unclear. I had my fun while being a student, I did my studies in a foreign country, so when I started work I didn't mind having my first child (was 28). I keep warning them how tiring it is to raise a child, and you better do it while you're healthy.
  - hotpotamus 4y ago

by Glawen 4y ago

zo1 4y ago

It's a huge host of reasons and they all have a tiny cumulative effect. Also after a while it also reaches a tipping point in that "all my friends aren't having kids so why should I". The reasons vary based on who you ask and their bias. My bias will be obvious. Here's my list: - War on traditional family values. That includes marriage and having kids. - War on men. - Toxic and degenerate pop culture promoted to teens. - Hookup culture, dating apps, easy and promoted and celebrated divorces - Daddy government is there aleays to provide a huge cushion for badly picked marriages. For women at least. - Men are scared away from marriage due to the legal system being skewed against them. - Promotion and glorification of party culture. Having kids and a stable marriage is Hard. If everything is handed on a platter to you from an early age and you're shielded from the realities and difficulties of life, this is going to seem like a huge life decision that is too hard. - We don't realize how much our collective fiddling and tweaking with various parts of our world with laws and incentives is having on society and culture. We're fucking it up royally. Just look at how degenerate pop culture is atm, and look at it honestly, and wonder if it's healthy for society on the aggregate.

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
Most of my friends have been married or in long term relationships for at least a decade now. None are divorced. With one exception none have children and we're all approaching 40. Your list doesn't address why my peer group is choosing not to have kids.
- zo1 4y ago
  I don't know what to tell you. My guess would be that they all enjoy the leisure lifestyle that's not disturbed by children. Maybe they're scared of having children by the possibility of them being bullied at school due to the prevalence of thug culture? School shootings? Maybe Greta and that camp have them so scared that they'll be destroying the environment by having kids? Maybe they are guilted by woke culture about being white so they want to wipe out their own race. Who knows. At the end of the day. Ask them why. Then poke and prod till they tell you the core of why they think that way. Then see what in recent culture or happenings might have caused them to think that way.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    I'm not at a loss as to why my friends aren't having kids. I'm at a loss as to why you think your list is relevant to why my friends are having kids. You've produced a fine list of culture war talking points but none of the simple stuff. No talk of economic problems or people not wanting to continue the same destructive cycles and finally feeling like they have the option. Instead it's all "Greta" and "woke culture" and "white guilt".
    - zo1 4y ago
      My comments seem not welcome to you. Speak to your friends, as I won't engage further in an antagonizing discussion that seems to be turning personal with you.
      - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
        Well, in this case the choices are personal as they are effecting myself, my wife, and my friends. I suppose it's understandable to feel OK infantilizing people and making arguments around culture war hot topics if you're not personally involved, but the implication that it's something like white guilt or the war on men is detached, disrespectful, and antagonizing.
softsound 4y ago
I think some elements of this are true, and yes I think culture plays a big part in it. I am sorta on the opposite side of this I want to have kids, get married, I'm willing to support my husband if I make more then him (whenever I get one), but I feel like I'm just not stable enough yet. Most of my tech jobs are short lived, I'm also trying to run my own business and just don't have the time to do a lot right now. I grew up with parents with hugh issues with money and they divorced and I don't want that for my future. I don't want to fight over money or jobs or small stupid stuff that doesn't matter in life. I think honestly a lot of people just don't feel like they are in a stable position, we also don't have strong communities anymore that helps out when stuff does get hard like marriage or raising kids. I think honestly a lot of people are really lonely and just live with it because they don't know how to fix it. We don't have systems or places in place that make it easy to hang out nor do we have the time nowadays. Or at least I don't. I'm in my 30's though and I'm in a long distance relationship but it sounds really hard to imagine actually getting married anytime soon I just have so much going on. I really believe people want to feel loved and have someone to love, I think a lot of our society now though is hyper competitive, commercialized and no longer built for families. People don't trust anymore and it's a fear driven culture.

LikesPwsh 4y ago

Increased education requirements to not live in poverty is the #1 reason in my opinion. When parents expected young children to perform unpaid manual labor the net cost of upbringing was negligible or even profitable. Now many people only start earning at 21 or later, and aren't even able to support their parents at the point due to the huge size of mortgage and college loans.

carlmr 4y ago

>Look at Germany, it's pretty stable if you are a wage earner, especially if you have an engineering diploma. They don't make more kids even though they are safe, and they have generous paternity leave. Even for those stable engineers, it's hard to afford a home. Also you start earning money late at 25, because you needed those pesky degrees. Now you are 30, have a modicum of money, and want to live a little first. So you have fun until 35. Now you're looking for a life partner, you find them at 40. But you need to be financially stable, so you save up for a downpayment, you wait a few years until 45 to start a family. You now notice you can't have kids because you're too old. The end.

kkfdkerpoe 4y ago
Studying AND "living a little" at the same time isn't that hard with all the exchange programs EU universities provide. Traveling within Europe is also very cheap. It's mainly just an excuse for people who don't want children that much, which is now more common due to cultural changes as well. Expensive housing on the other hand is a real problem. Requiring a long degree for nearly everything is also dumb.
- carlmr 4y ago
  I could barely survive on the money I was able to earn during uni. Bafög was denied but parents couldn't support me properly either. So no, I couldn't live a little in uni. I needed a proper salary for that.
Glawen 4y ago
I ask my young colleagues in their late 20s early 30s why they don't make kids. They say they don't feel like it, they are afraid of the commitment and prefer to have fun. How long is the fun supposed to be is unclear. I had my fun while being a student, I did my studies in a foreign country, so when I started work I didn't mind having my first child (was 28). I keep warning them how tiring it is to raise a child, and you better do it while you're healthy.
- hotpotamus 4y ago