4 ms·

The problem is that children, rather than free farm labor, are now too expensive, while the wages on which the majority of people depend, are too unpredictable

The problem is that children, rather than free farm labor, are now too expensive, while the wages on which the majority of people depend, are too unpredictable and intermittent for the kind of long term involvement 2.1+ children represent. If countries want to solve their fertility problem, they can waste their time with various tricks and "incentives" to postpone what they'll eventually have to do for geopolitical reasons alone, which is to go to war with their own business community. Capital controls, tarrifs, sector bargaining -- the exploding heads of think tank libertarians guide the way like lit torches through a swampy marsh. If wage earners can be assured that they are taken care of irrespective of the spasms of the global market, they can have children. Otherwise they will persist in their state of soft rebellion, which is marked by low fertility and low laber market participation, among others.

welshwelsh 4y ago
I wish countries stopped trying to "solve their fertility problem." We don't need so many people. We don't need laborers to exploit. We should focus on technological and robotic solutions to the labor shortage.
Glawen 4y ago
Is that really all to it? Look at Germany, it's pretty stable if you are a wage earner, especially if you have an engineering diploma. They don't make more kids even though they are safe, and they have generous paternity leave. There is something else going on, I feel a kind of ambiant negativity induced by the global warming news, which seem to block people to have kids.
- zo1 4y ago
  It's a huge host of reasons and they all have a tiny cumulative effect. Also after a while it also reaches a tipping point in that "all my friends aren't having kids so why should I". The reasons vary based on who you ask and their bias. My bias will be obvious. Here's my list: - War on traditional family values. That includes marriage and having kids. - War on men. - Toxic and degenerate pop culture promoted to teens. - Hookup culture, dating apps, easy and promoted and celebrated divorces - Daddy government is there aleays to provide a huge cushion for badly picked marriages. For women at least. - Men are scared away from marriage due to the legal system being skewed against them. - Promotion and glorification of party culture. Having kids and a stable marriage is Hard. If everything is handed on a platter to you from an early age and you're shielded from the realities and difficulties of life, this is going to seem like a huge life decision that is too hard. - We don't realize how much our collective fiddling and tweaking with various parts of our world with laws and incentives is having on society and culture. We're fucking it up royally. Just look at how degenerate pop culture is atm, and look at it honestly, and wonder if it's healthy for society on the aggregate.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    Most of my friends have been married or in long term relationships for at least a decade now. None are divorced. With one exception none have children and we're all approaching 40. Your list doesn't address why my peer group is choosing not to have kids.
    - zo1 4y ago
      I don't know what to tell you. My guess would be that they all enjoy the leisure lifestyle that's not disturbed by children. Maybe they're scared of having children by the possibility of them being bullied at school due to the prevalence of thug culture? School shootings? Maybe Greta and that camp have them so scared that they'll be destroying the environment by having kids? Maybe they are guilted by woke culture about being white so they want to wipe out their own race. Who knows. At the end of the day. Ask them why. Then poke and prod till they tell you the core of why they think that way. Then see what in recent culture or happenings might have caused them to think that way.
      - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
        I'm not at a loss as to why my friends aren't having kids. I'm at a loss as to why you think your list is relevant to why my friends are having kids. You've produced a fine list of culture war talking points but none of the simple stuff. No talk of economic problems or people not wanting to continue the same destructive cycles and finally feeling like they have the option. Instead it's all "Greta" and "woke culture" and "white guilt".
        zo1 4y ago
        My comments seem not welcome to you. Speak to your friends, as I won't engage further in an antagonizing discussion that seems to be turning personal with you.
        SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
- LikesPwsh 4y ago
  Increased education requirements to not live in poverty is the #1 reason in my opinion. When parents expected young children to perform unpaid manual labor the net cost of upbringing was negligible or even profitable. Now many people only start earning at 21 or later, and aren't even able to support their parents at the point due to the huge size of mortgage and college loans.
- carlmr 4y ago
  >Look at Germany, it's pretty stable if you are a wage earner, especially if you have an engineering diploma. They don't make more kids even though they are safe, and they have generous paternity leave. Even for those stable engineers, it's hard to afford a home. Also you start earning money late at 25, because you needed those pesky degrees. Now you are 30, have a modicum of money, and want to live a little first. So you have fun until 35. Now you're looking for a life partner, you find them at 40. But you need to be financially stable, so you save up for a downpayment, you wait a few years until 45 to start a family. You now notice you can't have kids because you're too old. The end.
  - kkfdkerpoe 4y ago
    Studying AND "living a little" at the same time isn't that hard with all the exchange programs EU universities provide. Traveling within Europe is also very cheap. It's mainly just an excuse for people who don't want children that much, which is now more common due to cultural changes as well. Expensive housing on the other hand is a real problem. Requiring a long degree for nearly everything is also dumb.
    - carlmr 4y ago
      I could barely survive on the money I was able to earn during uni. Bafög was denied but parents couldn't support me properly either. So no, I couldn't live a little in uni. I needed a proper salary for that.
  - Glawen 4y ago
    I ask my young colleagues in their late 20s early 30s why they don't make kids. They say they don't feel like it, they are afraid of the commitment and prefer to have fun. How long is the fun supposed to be is unclear. I had my fun while being a student, I did my studies in a foreign country, so when I started work I didn't mind having my first child (was 28). I keep warning them how tiring it is to raise a child, and you better do it while you're healthy.
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
refurb 4y ago
“Too expensive” doesnt make sense when low income countries have more kids than high income countries.
- lmz 4y ago
  Those aren't kids. Those are kid-shaped pensions.
  - refurb 4y ago
    You're kinda proving my point. People think kids are too expensive because of the expectation of what kids cost. Not just monetarily but also in terms of time. You see it especially in Asian countries like South Korea. Kids mean hiring tutors, violin lessons, test prep, etc. Because of course my kid won't be average, he's going to be a next Bill Gates and that costs a lot of money.
explodingman 4y ago
> exploding heads … I love this!
emptyfile 4y ago
[dead]

welshwelsh 4y ago

I wish countries stopped trying to "solve their fertility problem." We don't need so many people. We don't need laborers to exploit. We should focus on technological and robotic solutions to the labor shortage.

Glawen 4y ago

Is that really all to it? Look at Germany, it's pretty stable if you are a wage earner, especially if you have an engineering diploma. They don't make more kids even though they are safe, and they have generous paternity leave. There is something else going on, I feel a kind of ambiant negativity induced by the global warming news, which seem to block people to have kids.

zo1 4y ago
It's a huge host of reasons and they all have a tiny cumulative effect. Also after a while it also reaches a tipping point in that "all my friends aren't having kids so why should I". The reasons vary based on who you ask and their bias. My bias will be obvious. Here's my list: - War on traditional family values. That includes marriage and having kids. - War on men. - Toxic and degenerate pop culture promoted to teens. - Hookup culture, dating apps, easy and promoted and celebrated divorces - Daddy government is there aleays to provide a huge cushion for badly picked marriages. For women at least. - Men are scared away from marriage due to the legal system being skewed against them. - Promotion and glorification of party culture. Having kids and a stable marriage is Hard. If everything is handed on a platter to you from an early age and you're shielded from the realities and difficulties of life, this is going to seem like a huge life decision that is too hard. - We don't realize how much our collective fiddling and tweaking with various parts of our world with laws and incentives is having on society and culture. We're fucking it up royally. Just look at how degenerate pop culture is atm, and look at it honestly, and wonder if it's healthy for society on the aggregate.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  Most of my friends have been married or in long term relationships for at least a decade now. None are divorced. With one exception none have children and we're all approaching 40. Your list doesn't address why my peer group is choosing not to have kids.
  - zo1 4y ago
    I don't know what to tell you. My guess would be that they all enjoy the leisure lifestyle that's not disturbed by children. Maybe they're scared of having children by the possibility of them being bullied at school due to the prevalence of thug culture? School shootings? Maybe Greta and that camp have them so scared that they'll be destroying the environment by having kids? Maybe they are guilted by woke culture about being white so they want to wipe out their own race. Who knows. At the end of the day. Ask them why. Then poke and prod till they tell you the core of why they think that way. Then see what in recent culture or happenings might have caused them to think that way.
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      I'm not at a loss as to why my friends aren't having kids. I'm at a loss as to why you think your list is relevant to why my friends are having kids. You've produced a fine list of culture war talking points but none of the simple stuff. No talk of economic problems or people not wanting to continue the same destructive cycles and finally feeling like they have the option. Instead it's all "Greta" and "woke culture" and "white guilt".
      - zo1 4y ago
        My comments seem not welcome to you. Speak to your friends, as I won't engage further in an antagonizing discussion that seems to be turning personal with you.
        SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
LikesPwsh 4y ago
Increased education requirements to not live in poverty is the #1 reason in my opinion. When parents expected young children to perform unpaid manual labor the net cost of upbringing was negligible or even profitable. Now many people only start earning at 21 or later, and aren't even able to support their parents at the point due to the huge size of mortgage and college loans.
carlmr 4y ago
>Look at Germany, it's pretty stable if you are a wage earner, especially if you have an engineering diploma. They don't make more kids even though they are safe, and they have generous paternity leave. Even for those stable engineers, it's hard to afford a home. Also you start earning money late at 25, because you needed those pesky degrees. Now you are 30, have a modicum of money, and want to live a little first. So you have fun until 35. Now you're looking for a life partner, you find them at 40. But you need to be financially stable, so you save up for a downpayment, you wait a few years until 45 to start a family. You now notice you can't have kids because you're too old. The end.
- kkfdkerpoe 4y ago
  Studying AND "living a little" at the same time isn't that hard with all the exchange programs EU universities provide. Traveling within Europe is also very cheap. It's mainly just an excuse for people who don't want children that much, which is now more common due to cultural changes as well. Expensive housing on the other hand is a real problem. Requiring a long degree for nearly everything is also dumb.
  - carlmr 4y ago
    I could barely survive on the money I was able to earn during uni. Bafög was denied but parents couldn't support me properly either. So no, I couldn't live a little in uni. I needed a proper salary for that.
- Glawen 4y ago
  I ask my young colleagues in their late 20s early 30s why they don't make kids. They say they don't feel like it, they are afraid of the commitment and prefer to have fun. How long is the fun supposed to be is unclear. I had my fun while being a student, I did my studies in a foreign country, so when I started work I didn't mind having my first child (was 28). I keep warning them how tiring it is to raise a child, and you better do it while you're healthy.
  - hotpotamus 4y ago

refurb 4y ago

“Too expensive” doesnt make sense when low income countries have more kids than high income countries.

lmz 4y ago
Those aren't kids. Those are kid-shaped pensions.
- refurb 4y ago
  You're kinda proving my point. People think kids are too expensive because of the expectation of what kids cost. Not just monetarily but also in terms of time. You see it especially in Asian countries like South Korea. Kids mean hiring tutors, violin lessons, test prep, etc. Because of course my kid won't be average, he's going to be a next Bill Gates and that costs a lot of money.

explodingman 4y ago

> exploding heads … I love this!

emptyfile 4y ago

[dead]