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I've noticed that with a lot of local (nowhere near Silicon Valley) layoffs too. Very few engineers but lots of product and design roles - even from a purely en

by antod 4y ago

I've noticed that with a lot of local (nowhere near Silicon Valley) layoffs too. Very few engineers but lots of product and design roles - even from a purely engineering perspective it's a real shame because in my experience having enough good product and design people around makes engineers feel better about both team collaboration and what they're shipping. From my experience with multiple companies that have suffered big declines, designers leaving or getting laid off has been a reliable canary in the coal mine signal. I don't know what is driving this current trend though. Apart from the bug tech giants giving up on their actual products and just focusing on stock prices?

jillesvangurp 4y ago
Generally, bigger companies have too many of these people and you get a bit of analysis paralysis and too many captains on the ship type dynamics. I've seen this in multiple companies where the number of technical vs. non technical people got out of wack to the point where you have more non technical people obsessing about what the handful of technical people are actually supposed to do. This happens particularly when you have engineering managers with big budgets that start shopping for roles they think they need because that's just the way things are done without much regard for the situation in each team they manage. In some cynical cases, this is just about inflating their own or their companies importance (through headcount). Especially of course with VC funded companies looking for some exit. So, you get a lot of people doing busywork that aren't actually that effective. Basically, product managers are a form of middle management. Good ones are indeed really valuable to have around. But not all of them are that good. And I've had the "pleasure" of working with a few spectacularly ineffective ones as well as a few really good ones. Same with designers. I've worked with some fantastic designers over the years that I would recommend to anyone. But also a few not so great ones. Some companies actually think of designers almost as something they can just parachute in as a generic skill. I think that's a mistake generally but it is what it is at many companies. Good design however is usually the work of a few people and not a lot of them. When you look at cost and you need to cut some, you prioritize by what people add to the equation. So, it's not surprising that say a lot of maybe relatively junior product managers or designers aren't really considered that essential relative to engineers that actually can fix bugs, add features, and keep things going without either of those type of people involved. Of course there's a point where teams become dysfunctional. But there's a sweet spot in between where they might become more effective. In VC funded teams with a track record of hiring people as fast as they can, most of them can loose a lot of people before they ever reach that sweet spot. I'd argue most of the FANG companies could do a lot better than they do right now with far less people. Throwing more people at a thing doesn't make things better. Fred Brooks (recently deceased) figured that out decades ago. That hasn't really changed. The inverse is also true maybe (removing people from large teams undoes the damage that you did by hiring them).
- antod 4y ago
  Yeah that probably is the case at big companies. My experience is all at smaller non VC funded companies where having some good product and design talent is critical.
- candiodari 4y ago
  > Generally, bigger companies have too many of these people and you get a bit of analysis paralysis and too many captains on the ship type dynamics. I've seen this in multiple companies where the number of technical vs. non technical people got out of wack to the point where you have more non technical people obsessing about what the handful of technical people are actually supposed to do. I have seen this happen many times ... I've just never seen it change. And once I asked THE captain, and he was pretty sure he was going to increase rather than decrease project managers and lower the amount of engineers. I mean, clearly this is exactly how companies like it. Many people discussing, with as little actual real information as possible, what to do. Then they use heavy-handed tactics attempting to enforce it. 90% of time this doesn't work, because while people bend (and break), reality neither bends nor breaks. A lot of stuff just can't be done. This was invariably solved by increasing management and all the kinds of project/program/... managers. Usually the more successful ones among them were the ones that were better at lying to higher up management. (and yes, usually by "not lying", but by redefining the project until it was done "successfully", half the time by destroying the actual work done and declaring the situation before the project started as the success management wanted)

by antod 4y ago

jillesvangurp 4y ago

Generally, bigger companies have too many of these people and you get a bit of analysis paralysis and too many captains on the ship type dynamics. I've seen this in multiple companies where the number of technical vs. non technical people got out of wack to the point where you have more non technical people obsessing about what the handful of technical people are actually supposed to do. This happens particularly when you have engineering managers with big budgets that start shopping for roles they think they need because that's just the way things are done without much regard for the situation in each team they manage. In some cynical cases, this is just about inflating their own or their companies importance (through headcount). Especially of course with VC funded companies looking for some exit. So, you get a lot of people doing busywork that aren't actually that effective. Basically, product managers are a form of middle management. Good ones are indeed really valuable to have around. But not all of them are that good. And I've had the "pleasure" of working with a few spectacularly ineffective ones as well as a few really good ones. Same with designers. I've worked with some fantastic designers over the years that I would recommend to anyone. But also a few not so great ones. Some companies actually think of designers almost as something they can just parachute in as a generic skill. I think that's a mistake generally but it is what it is at many companies. Good design however is usually the work of a few people and not a lot of them. When you look at cost and you need to cut some, you prioritize by what people add to the equation. So, it's not surprising that say a lot of maybe relatively junior product managers or designers aren't really considered that essential relative to engineers that actually can fix bugs, add features, and keep things going without either of those type of people involved. Of course there's a point where teams become dysfunctional. But there's a sweet spot in between where they might become more effective. In VC funded teams with a track record of hiring people as fast as they can, most of them can loose a lot of people before they ever reach that sweet spot. I'd argue most of the FANG companies could do a lot better than they do right now with far less people. Throwing more people at a thing doesn't make things better. Fred Brooks (recently deceased) figured that out decades ago. That hasn't really changed. The inverse is also true maybe (removing people from large teams undoes the damage that you did by hiring them).

antod 4y ago
Yeah that probably is the case at big companies. My experience is all at smaller non VC funded companies where having some good product and design talent is critical.
candiodari 4y ago
> Generally, bigger companies have too many of these people and you get a bit of analysis paralysis and too many captains on the ship type dynamics. I've seen this in multiple companies where the number of technical vs. non technical people got out of wack to the point where you have more non technical people obsessing about what the handful of technical people are actually supposed to do. I have seen this happen many times ... I've just never seen it change. And once I asked THE captain, and he was pretty sure he was going to increase rather than decrease project managers and lower the amount of engineers. I mean, clearly this is exactly how companies like it. Many people discussing, with as little actual real information as possible, what to do. Then they use heavy-handed tactics attempting to enforce it. 90% of time this doesn't work, because while people bend (and break), reality neither bends nor breaks. A lot of stuff just can't be done. This was invariably solved by increasing management and all the kinds of project/program/... managers. Usually the more successful ones among them were the ones that were better at lying to higher up management. (and yes, usually by "not lying", but by redefining the project until it was done "successfully", half the time by destroying the actual work done and declaring the situation before the project started as the success management wanted)