4 ms·

A lot of these tech layoffs seem to target product people: product managers, product owners, designers and the like. Is there a trust crisis on the value genera

by haolez 4y ago

A lot of these tech layoffs seem to target product people: product managers, product owners, designers and the like. Is there a trust crisis on the value generated by this kind of roles?

black_13 4y ago
[dead]
ferdowsi 4y ago
More like companies are reducing scope to focus on key profit centers or initiatives, making product managers and designers easy targets for layoffs.
buzzwords 4y ago
Is there a stat on this please? I'm quite curious about this.
- Ologn 4y ago
  Interviewing.io did some analysis recently, as well as last year as well on what roles were affected by layoffs https://interviewing.io/blog/how-many-engineers-laid-off-in-2022-and-2023-so-far https://interviewing.io/blog/how-many-engineers-laid-off-in-...
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    Thanks for posting that, very helpful and interesting. I actually think the estimate there for "software engineers" is too high, because it's likely that a very large number of layoffs in "software engineering" was engineering management, especially middle management and director level roles. Meta was perhaps the most transparent about their desire for a flatter org structure. Obviously this is not always the case (Amazon, for example, canned much of the Alexa devices division), but I think companies realized that in many cases there were "too many cooks in the kitchen".
antod 4y ago
I've noticed that with a lot of local (nowhere near Silicon Valley) layoffs too. Very few engineers but lots of product and design roles - even from a purely engineering perspective it's a real shame because in my experience having enough good product and design people around makes engineers feel better about both team collaboration and what they're shipping. From my experience with multiple companies that have suffered big declines, designers leaving or getting laid off has been a reliable canary in the coal mine signal. I don't know what is driving this current trend though. Apart from the bug tech giants giving up on their actual products and just focusing on stock prices?
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  Generally, bigger companies have too many of these people and you get a bit of analysis paralysis and too many captains on the ship type dynamics. I've seen this in multiple companies where the number of technical vs. non technical people got out of wack to the point where you have more non technical people obsessing about what the handful of technical people are actually supposed to do. This happens particularly when you have engineering managers with big budgets that start shopping for roles they think they need because that's just the way things are done without much regard for the situation in each team they manage. In some cynical cases, this is just about inflating their own or their companies importance (through headcount). Especially of course with VC funded companies looking for some exit. So, you get a lot of people doing busywork that aren't actually that effective. Basically, product managers are a form of middle management. Good ones are indeed really valuable to have around. But not all of them are that good. And I've had the "pleasure" of working with a few spectacularly ineffective ones as well as a few really good ones. Same with designers. I've worked with some fantastic designers over the years that I would recommend to anyone. But also a few not so great ones. Some companies actually think of designers almost as something they can just parachute in as a generic skill. I think that's a mistake generally but it is what it is at many companies. Good design however is usually the work of a few people and not a lot of them. When you look at cost and you need to cut some, you prioritize by what people add to the equation. So, it's not surprising that say a lot of maybe relatively junior product managers or designers aren't really considered that essential relative to engineers that actually can fix bugs, add features, and keep things going without either of those type of people involved. Of course there's a point where teams become dysfunctional. But there's a sweet spot in between where they might become more effective. In VC funded teams with a track record of hiring people as fast as they can, most of them can loose a lot of people before they ever reach that sweet spot. I'd argue most of the FANG companies could do a lot better than they do right now with far less people. Throwing more people at a thing doesn't make things better. Fred Brooks (recently deceased) figured that out decades ago. That hasn't really changed. The inverse is also true maybe (removing people from large teams undoes the damage that you did by hiring them).
Beaver117 4y ago
Although I personally dislike product people, I recognize the value they have to organizations focused on growth. But when you're facing a recession you probably only need a fraction of them.
- senttoschool 4y ago
  Same can be said about developers. You don't need as many developers if you don't focus on growth. You only need enough to make sure the system doesn't crash.
doktorhladnjak 4y ago
I think it's a natural effect of the larger trend toward profitability over growth. Product and design hiring often coincide with a focus on growth. New features, new products, new product lines to grow the entire pie. Focusing on profitability can shift toward making existing products more efficient and streamlined, or just not changing them so much and finding ways to save on costs.

by haolez 4y ago

A lot of these tech layoffs seem to target product people: product managers, product owners, designers and the like. Is there a trust crisis on the value generated by this kind of roles?

black_13 4y ago

[dead]

ferdowsi 4y ago

More like companies are reducing scope to focus on key profit centers or initiatives, making product managers and designers easy targets for layoffs.

buzzwords 4y ago

Is there a stat on this please? I'm quite curious about this.

Ologn 4y ago
Interviewing.io did some analysis recently, as well as last year as well on what roles were affected by layoffs https://interviewing.io/blog/how-many-engineers-laid-off-in-2022-and-2023-so-far https://interviewing.io/blog/how-many-engineers-laid-off-in-...
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  Thanks for posting that, very helpful and interesting. I actually think the estimate there for "software engineers" is too high, because it's likely that a very large number of layoffs in "software engineering" was engineering management, especially middle management and director level roles. Meta was perhaps the most transparent about their desire for a flatter org structure. Obviously this is not always the case (Amazon, for example, canned much of the Alexa devices division), but I think companies realized that in many cases there were "too many cooks in the kitchen".

antod 4y ago

I've noticed that with a lot of local (nowhere near Silicon Valley) layoffs too. Very few engineers but lots of product and design roles - even from a purely engineering perspective it's a real shame because in my experience having enough good product and design people around makes engineers feel better about both team collaboration and what they're shipping. From my experience with multiple companies that have suffered big declines, designers leaving or getting laid off has been a reliable canary in the coal mine signal. I don't know what is driving this current trend though. Apart from the bug tech giants giving up on their actual products and just focusing on stock prices?

jillesvangurp 4y ago
Generally, bigger companies have too many of these people and you get a bit of analysis paralysis and too many captains on the ship type dynamics. I've seen this in multiple companies where the number of technical vs. non technical people got out of wack to the point where you have more non technical people obsessing about what the handful of technical people are actually supposed to do. This happens particularly when you have engineering managers with big budgets that start shopping for roles they think they need because that's just the way things are done without much regard for the situation in each team they manage. In some cynical cases, this is just about inflating their own or their companies importance (through headcount). Especially of course with VC funded companies looking for some exit. So, you get a lot of people doing busywork that aren't actually that effective. Basically, product managers are a form of middle management. Good ones are indeed really valuable to have around. But not all of them are that good. And I've had the "pleasure" of working with a few spectacularly ineffective ones as well as a few really good ones. Same with designers. I've worked with some fantastic designers over the years that I would recommend to anyone. But also a few not so great ones. Some companies actually think of designers almost as something they can just parachute in as a generic skill. I think that's a mistake generally but it is what it is at many companies. Good design however is usually the work of a few people and not a lot of them. When you look at cost and you need to cut some, you prioritize by what people add to the equation. So, it's not surprising that say a lot of maybe relatively junior product managers or designers aren't really considered that essential relative to engineers that actually can fix bugs, add features, and keep things going without either of those type of people involved. Of course there's a point where teams become dysfunctional. But there's a sweet spot in between where they might become more effective. In VC funded teams with a track record of hiring people as fast as they can, most of them can loose a lot of people before they ever reach that sweet spot. I'd argue most of the FANG companies could do a lot better than they do right now with far less people. Throwing more people at a thing doesn't make things better. Fred Brooks (recently deceased) figured that out decades ago. That hasn't really changed. The inverse is also true maybe (removing people from large teams undoes the damage that you did by hiring them).

Beaver117 4y ago

Although I personally dislike product people, I recognize the value they have to organizations focused on growth. But when you're facing a recession you probably only need a fraction of them.

senttoschool 4y ago
Same can be said about developers. You don't need as many developers if you don't focus on growth. You only need enough to make sure the system doesn't crash.

doktorhladnjak 4y ago

I think it's a natural effect of the larger trend toward profitability over growth. Product and design hiring often coincide with a focus on growth. New features, new products, new product lines to grow the entire pie. Focusing on profitability can shift toward making existing products more efficient and streamlined, or just not changing them so much and finding ways to save on costs.