3 ms·

Your whole comment ignores seemingly the entirety of human history other than the (sanitized) history of Western Europe and the US. > Sex within marriage, no d

by smt88 4y ago

Your whole comment ignores seemingly the entirety of human history other than the (sanitized) history of Western Europe and the US. > Sex within marriage, no divorce, marriage and sex for procreation, reliance on extended family and local community, no industrialization/urbanization, social isolation, religion as unifying principle. All of these things have been present in the most war-torn and unstable societies (ex: much of the Middle East, some of the areas around present-day China and Russia). > Hippy communities on the other hand tended to be built around sexual promiscuity or at least lack boundaries around sex and marriage, and subsequently suffer commensurate relationship/family breakdown. There are cultures that existed for hundreds of years without the concept of monogamous marriage. Monogamy doesn't guarantee familial stability, nor does promiscuity. Domestic partnership (what we would call marriage) was a familial and economic relationship, not always a guarantee of sexual exclusivity. The second-largest empire in history, the Mongol Empire, had an enormous amount of polygamy and sexual promiscuity. The Ottoman Empire, Ethiopian Empire, and many other large (and long-lasting) empires practiced polygamy. Even ignoring all of that, in the US, most people cheat on their significant others[1]. There's no reason to think that's a modern phenomenon, either. 1. https://today.yougov.com/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/10/04/how-many-americans-have-cheated-their-partner-poll https://today.yougov.com/topics/society/articles-reports/202...

lelanthran 4y ago
> There are cultures that existed for hundreds of years without the concept of monogamous marriage. Yeah, and then they died out. Did any survive?
- skissane 4y ago
  Polygyny still exists, and is still legal, in over 50 countries worldwide-most of those are Muslim-majority countries, but there are also some non-Muslim majority countries which have legal polygyny for their Muslim minority (e.g. India, Singapore). While Christianity traditionally opposes polygyny, it is popular among some Africans who mix Christianity with their traditional practices, and some Christian-majority African countries have legalised it due (in part) to pressure from those Christians. I forget how many wives the Emir of Dubai has had-a few, simultaneously. From what some of his ex-wives have said, he’s an abusive husband, but Dubai sure survives. And while most marriages in Dubai are monogamous, I’m sure he’s not the only man in Dubai with multiple simultaneous legal wives.
skissane 4y ago
Most polygamous societies were still predominantly monogamous - the majority of men had only one wife, multiple wives was generally something reserved for the wealthy elite. For example, even at the height of Mormon polygamy in Utah, only 15-20% of Mormon families were polygamous, the other 80%+ of Mormons (mostly) believed in it but didn’t practice it. I think the argument is that putting constraints on individual sexual freedom promotes social stability in the long-run; the existence of constraints is more important than their precise details.
lostlogin 4y ago
> All of these things have been present in the most war-torn and unstable societies (ex: much of the Middle East, some of the areas around present-day China and Russia). No, they have been condemned for females and tolerated for the more powerful.
scythe 4y ago
The Mongol Empire is the last example you want to use about stability. Regardless of whether sex was monogamous in most ancient societies, it was nonetheless ceremonialized, (somewhat) feared and (to the extent possible) regulated. The rules changed, but the presence of rules was consistent. It's not easy to find a culture that took sex as lightly as ours. But it's also not easy to find a culture that believed the Earth orbits the Sun. Ancient cultures often believed in some form of vitalism and had spiritualistic beliefs about the consequences of sexual activity. Those practices are not so easily mimicked by converts raised in the atomic age. From your article: >88% of women and 73% of men say kissing another person while in a monogamous relationship is cheating It doesn't follow that most people actually have sex outside their exclusive relationships. I would agree that the post you replied to places an excessive emphasis on sex. Hippie communes that I've examined often failed to effectively manage expectations regarding the work required and the quality of life that could be achieved. My ancestors are Mennonites. I visited them in Missouri when I was fifteen. There is something appealing about their lifestyle, but after experiencing it for a couple of weeks, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't choose it.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  > It's not easy to find a culture that took sex as lightly as ours Classical Greece springs to mind. Possibly high Roman culture also.
  - scythe 4y ago
    Neither Greece nor Rome is a valid example. There were not the restrictions we're used to. But taboos abounded, particularly e.g. the stigma against cunnilingus. The Romans in particular gave us the phrase Quis custodiet ipsos custodes which was motivated by some noblemen's jealous guardianship of their wives.
  - skissane 4y ago
    > Classical Greece springs to mind. Possibly high Roman culture also. Athenian culture encouraged sexual relationships between grown men and teenage boys - but mostly looked down on relationships between grown men. And, in Athens, same-sex relations involving women were less acceptable than those involving men. (Sparta was quite different in that regard.) For most ancient Greeks-and most ancient Romans too-sex was moral when it reflected societal power relationships (man-woman, man-boy, man-slave), immoral when it inverted them or ignored them. Consent was largely ignored. Many Roman men were repulsed by female homosexuality since they saw it as a woman attempting to usurp the dominant male role. (There are possibly some exceptions, such as Catullus, but those exceptions don’t make the generalisation untrue.) Ancient Greek and Roman culture was a long way off contemporary mainstream contemporary sexual mores. It was very different from traditional Christian sexual morality, but different in a completely different direction from contemporary Western society.
jterrys 4y ago
What a strange post. You realize those empires that practiced polygamy were brutally oppressive, yes? Women didn't so much have a choice as in forced into polygamy because they were treated as property and that's about as far away from the hippy movement as you can get when it comes to individual freedoms.
- watwut 4y ago
  Afaik, being married as an Amish can be quite oppressively too. No way out if your husband beats you. No divorce means exactly that - no matter how bad it gets, victim gets blamed.
- TylerE 4y ago
  You think the Amish or the early Mormons treated their women better?
- smt88 4y ago
  > You realize those empires that practiced polygamy were brutally oppressive, yes? OP was talking about stability, not oppression. The Amish are oppressive, though not seemingly in a brutal way. Many societies with similar values to the Amish were also extremely oppressive. Regardless, I gave examples of incredibly brutal societies that valued monogamous marriage and sex for procreation. My whole point is that these variables have nothing to do with whether a society is stable, but it's also true that they have nothing to do with whether a society is nice to live in.

by smt88 4y ago

lelanthran 4y ago

> There are cultures that existed for hundreds of years without the concept of monogamous marriage. Yeah, and then they died out. Did any survive?

skissane 4y ago
Polygyny still exists, and is still legal, in over 50 countries worldwide-most of those are Muslim-majority countries, but there are also some non-Muslim majority countries which have legal polygyny for their Muslim minority (e.g. India, Singapore). While Christianity traditionally opposes polygyny, it is popular among some Africans who mix Christianity with their traditional practices, and some Christian-majority African countries have legalised it due (in part) to pressure from those Christians. I forget how many wives the Emir of Dubai has had-a few, simultaneously. From what some of his ex-wives have said, he’s an abusive husband, but Dubai sure survives. And while most marriages in Dubai are monogamous, I’m sure he’s not the only man in Dubai with multiple simultaneous legal wives.

skissane 4y ago

Most polygamous societies were still predominantly monogamous - the majority of men had only one wife, multiple wives was generally something reserved for the wealthy elite. For example, even at the height of Mormon polygamy in Utah, only 15-20% of Mormon families were polygamous, the other 80%+ of Mormons (mostly) believed in it but didn’t practice it. I think the argument is that putting constraints on individual sexual freedom promotes social stability in the long-run; the existence of constraints is more important than their precise details.

lostlogin 4y ago

> All of these things have been present in the most war-torn and unstable societies (ex: much of the Middle East, some of the areas around present-day China and Russia). No, they have been condemned for females and tolerated for the more powerful.

scythe 4y ago

The Mongol Empire is the last example you want to use about stability. Regardless of whether sex was monogamous in most ancient societies, it was nonetheless ceremonialized, (somewhat) feared and (to the extent possible) regulated. The rules changed, but the presence of rules was consistent. It's not easy to find a culture that took sex as lightly as ours. But it's also not easy to find a culture that believed the Earth orbits the Sun. Ancient cultures often believed in some form of vitalism and had spiritualistic beliefs about the consequences of sexual activity. Those practices are not so easily mimicked by converts raised in the atomic age. From your article: >88% of women and 73% of men say kissing another person while in a monogamous relationship is cheating It doesn't follow that most people actually have sex outside their exclusive relationships. I would agree that the post you replied to places an excessive emphasis on sex. Hippie communes that I've examined often failed to effectively manage expectations regarding the work required and the quality of life that could be achieved. My ancestors are Mennonites. I visited them in Missouri when I was fifteen. There is something appealing about their lifestyle, but after experiencing it for a couple of weeks, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't choose it.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
> It's not easy to find a culture that took sex as lightly as ours Classical Greece springs to mind. Possibly high Roman culture also.
- scythe 4y ago
  Neither Greece nor Rome is a valid example. There were not the restrictions we're used to. But taboos abounded, particularly e.g. the stigma against cunnilingus. The Romans in particular gave us the phrase Quis custodiet ipsos custodes which was motivated by some noblemen's jealous guardianship of their wives.
- skissane 4y ago
  > Classical Greece springs to mind. Possibly high Roman culture also. Athenian culture encouraged sexual relationships between grown men and teenage boys - but mostly looked down on relationships between grown men. And, in Athens, same-sex relations involving women were less acceptable than those involving men. (Sparta was quite different in that regard.) For most ancient Greeks-and most ancient Romans too-sex was moral when it reflected societal power relationships (man-woman, man-boy, man-slave), immoral when it inverted them or ignored them. Consent was largely ignored. Many Roman men were repulsed by female homosexuality since they saw it as a woman attempting to usurp the dominant male role. (There are possibly some exceptions, such as Catullus, but those exceptions don’t make the generalisation untrue.) Ancient Greek and Roman culture was a long way off contemporary mainstream contemporary sexual mores. It was very different from traditional Christian sexual morality, but different in a completely different direction from contemporary Western society.

jterrys 4y ago

What a strange post. You realize those empires that practiced polygamy were brutally oppressive, yes? Women didn't so much have a choice as in forced into polygamy because they were treated as property and that's about as far away from the hippy movement as you can get when it comes to individual freedoms.

watwut 4y ago
Afaik, being married as an Amish can be quite oppressively too. No way out if your husband beats you. No divorce means exactly that - no matter how bad it gets, victim gets blamed.
TylerE 4y ago
You think the Amish or the early Mormons treated their women better?
smt88 4y ago
> You realize those empires that practiced polygamy were brutally oppressive, yes? OP was talking about stability, not oppression. The Amish are oppressive, though not seemingly in a brutal way. Many societies with similar values to the Amish were also extremely oppressive. Regardless, I gave examples of incredibly brutal societies that valued monogamous marriage and sex for procreation. My whole point is that these variables have nothing to do with whether a society is stable, but it's also true that they have nothing to do with whether a society is nice to live in.