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> why it is that Amish(and similar groups)have succeeded where hippie type communes failed? They manifest characteristics that enable stable communities. Sex w

> why it is that Amish(and similar groups)have succeeded where hippie type communes failed? They manifest characteristics that enable stable communities. Sex within marriage, no divorce, marriage and sex for procreation, reliance on extended family and local community, no industrialization/urbanization, social isolation, religion as unifying principle. Hippy communities on the other hand tended to be built around sexual promiscuity or at least lack boundaries around sex and marriage, and subsequently suffer commensurate relationship/family breakdown. Not to mention that hippy communes are converts to agrarian life and when the going gets tough there’s no millennia of continuity to rely on but there is the memory of the city and the supermarket.

Covzire 4y ago
The Christian living aspect is definitely the major part of it. There are also over 100 Hutterite colonies, many that have survived for over a hundred years with new ones getting planted all the time all over SD, ND, some in MN and many in Alberta and nearby provinces each with roughly 100 people or so. Hutterites are essentially Amish who embrace technology for farming, manufacturing, etc. Their origin story is a bit different but they are both Anabaptist Christian sects with Germanic-language roots.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  ... and for those who don't know and are too lazy or busy to look it up, "anabaptist" means "adult baptism" - the idea that you did not need to be baptised as a child in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.
- Timon3 4y ago
  How many communes with this kind of "Christian living" have failed, and how many have succeeded? Since you know it's "definitely the major part of it" you'll surely have data beyond anecdotes, right?
lotsofpulp 4y ago
> Sex within marriage, no divorce, marriage and sex for procreation, reliance on extended family and local community, no industrialization/urbanization, social isolation, religion as unifying principle. Do Amish women have the ability to attain financial independence? If not, I would add that to the list.
- ars 4y ago
  Do Amish men have that ability? All evidence says no, they don't. Their financial situation is very tied to the entire community.
- kataklasm 4y ago
  You think women not being financially independent is a stabilizing factor for communities? I can't tell if this is sarcasm or if your mindset is stuck in the 1800's just the like Amish's is...
  - exolymph 4y ago
    Descriptive =/= prescriptive.
smt88 4y ago
Your whole comment ignores seemingly the entirety of human history other than the (sanitized) history of Western Europe and the US. > Sex within marriage, no divorce, marriage and sex for procreation, reliance on extended family and local community, no industrialization/urbanization, social isolation, religion as unifying principle. All of these things have been present in the most war-torn and unstable societies (ex: much of the Middle East, some of the areas around present-day China and Russia). > Hippy communities on the other hand tended to be built around sexual promiscuity or at least lack boundaries around sex and marriage, and subsequently suffer commensurate relationship/family breakdown. There are cultures that existed for hundreds of years without the concept of monogamous marriage. Monogamy doesn't guarantee familial stability, nor does promiscuity. Domestic partnership (what we would call marriage) was a familial and economic relationship, not always a guarantee of sexual exclusivity. The second-largest empire in history, the Mongol Empire, had an enormous amount of polygamy and sexual promiscuity. The Ottoman Empire, Ethiopian Empire, and many other large (and long-lasting) empires practiced polygamy. Even ignoring all of that, in the US, most people cheat on their significant others[1]. There's no reason to think that's a modern phenomenon, either. 1. https://today.yougov.com/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/10/04/how-many-americans-have-cheated-their-partner-poll https://today.yougov.com/topics/society/articles-reports/202...
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > There are cultures that existed for hundreds of years without the concept of monogamous marriage. Yeah, and then they died out. Did any survive?
  - skissane 4y ago
    Polygyny still exists, and is still legal, in over 50 countries worldwide-most of those are Muslim-majority countries, but there are also some non-Muslim majority countries which have legal polygyny for their Muslim minority (e.g. India, Singapore). While Christianity traditionally opposes polygyny, it is popular among some Africans who mix Christianity with their traditional practices, and some Christian-majority African countries have legalised it due (in part) to pressure from those Christians. I forget how many wives the Emir of Dubai has had-a few, simultaneously. From what some of his ex-wives have said, he’s an abusive husband, but Dubai sure survives. And while most marriages in Dubai are monogamous, I’m sure he’s not the only man in Dubai with multiple simultaneous legal wives.
teachrdan 4y ago
Ha. The reason so many stay is because it is more difficult than ever to leave. Think about it. Technology has left these people a literal century-plus behind. The longer the Amish exist, the higher the rate of retention will be. Furthermore, once you leave the Amish community, you are forever renounced by your family and friends. So you're left adrift without any support in a world that has left you behind. This leads to the question you seem to have ignored. Is longevity itself a positive trait? If an abusive cult existed for hundreds of years, would you call it a success? Hacker News readers should place a higher value on innovation and less on blind faith in tradition, in my opinion. https://abcnews.go.com/2020/amish-teens-tempted-drop/story?id=8473224 https://abcnews.go.com/2020/amish-teens-tempted-drop/story?i...
- mwbajor 4y ago
  I've lived next to Amish briefly and have friends that still live among them as non Amish. Im not going to argue with you because its just going to be anecdotal, but I can tell you that the kids are not brainwashed if thats what you're referring to. The "shunning" is also exaggerated. It looks like you just watched "Amish mafia" on TV. Most stay Amish because it really isn't a bad system at all. They use plenty of technology, its just approved by the community after careful consideration. They have their problems but their focus on the family is vastly superior to most of the modern day degeneracy devoted to chasing whatever fleeting pleasure is popular at the moment. They will be around for a very very long time.
- rendall 4y ago
  > Furthermore, once you leave the Amish community, you are forever renounced by your family and friends This is not true. Watch Devil's Playground for counter-examples.
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
Most of the (many) histories of hippy communes that I've read suggest a very different reason for their (typical) breakdown. Most/many of them were founded by 1 (sometimes 2) relatively wealthy individuals who had the means (often familial) to acquire land and do the initial capital purchases necessary to get things off the ground. When/if these individuals lose interest in the commune, let alone leave, the implicit agreement that bound the community together starts to fall apart. The communities that have survived for decades after being founded in the 68-75 period almost uniformly do not have this property. Twin Oaks (VA) is perhaps the prime example. You could cite The Farm (TN) as a counter-example, but that would mostly be a diversion - The Farm survived because its founder (Steven Gaskin) never lost interest in or left the commune.

Covzire 4y ago

The Christian living aspect is definitely the major part of it. There are also over 100 Hutterite colonies, many that have survived for over a hundred years with new ones getting planted all the time all over SD, ND, some in MN and many in Alberta and nearby provinces each with roughly 100 people or so. Hutterites are essentially Amish who embrace technology for farming, manufacturing, etc. Their origin story is a bit different but they are both Anabaptist Christian sects with Germanic-language roots.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
... and for those who don't know and are too lazy or busy to look it up, "anabaptist" means "adult baptism" - the idea that you did not need to be baptised as a child in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Timon3 4y ago
How many communes with this kind of "Christian living" have failed, and how many have succeeded? Since you know it's "definitely the major part of it" you'll surely have data beyond anecdotes, right?

lotsofpulp 4y ago

> Sex within marriage, no divorce, marriage and sex for procreation, reliance on extended family and local community, no industrialization/urbanization, social isolation, religion as unifying principle. Do Amish women have the ability to attain financial independence? If not, I would add that to the list.

ars 4y ago
Do Amish men have that ability? All evidence says no, they don't. Their financial situation is very tied to the entire community.
kataklasm 4y ago
You think women not being financially independent is a stabilizing factor for communities? I can't tell if this is sarcasm or if your mindset is stuck in the 1800's just the like Amish's is...
- exolymph 4y ago
  Descriptive =/= prescriptive.

smt88 4y ago

Your whole comment ignores seemingly the entirety of human history other than the (sanitized) history of Western Europe and the US. > Sex within marriage, no divorce, marriage and sex for procreation, reliance on extended family and local community, no industrialization/urbanization, social isolation, religion as unifying principle. All of these things have been present in the most war-torn and unstable societies (ex: much of the Middle East, some of the areas around present-day China and Russia). > Hippy communities on the other hand tended to be built around sexual promiscuity or at least lack boundaries around sex and marriage, and subsequently suffer commensurate relationship/family breakdown. There are cultures that existed for hundreds of years without the concept of monogamous marriage. Monogamy doesn't guarantee familial stability, nor does promiscuity. Domestic partnership (what we would call marriage) was a familial and economic relationship, not always a guarantee of sexual exclusivity. The second-largest empire in history, the Mongol Empire, had an enormous amount of polygamy and sexual promiscuity. The Ottoman Empire, Ethiopian Empire, and many other large (and long-lasting) empires practiced polygamy. Even ignoring all of that, in the US, most people cheat on their significant others[1]. There's no reason to think that's a modern phenomenon, either. 1. https://today.yougov.com/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/10/04/how-many-americans-have-cheated-their-partner-poll https://today.yougov.com/topics/society/articles-reports/202...

lelanthran 4y ago
> There are cultures that existed for hundreds of years without the concept of monogamous marriage. Yeah, and then they died out. Did any survive?
- skissane 4y ago
  Polygyny still exists, and is still legal, in over 50 countries worldwide-most of those are Muslim-majority countries, but there are also some non-Muslim majority countries which have legal polygyny for their Muslim minority (e.g. India, Singapore). While Christianity traditionally opposes polygyny, it is popular among some Africans who mix Christianity with their traditional practices, and some Christian-majority African countries have legalised it due (in part) to pressure from those Christians. I forget how many wives the Emir of Dubai has had-a few, simultaneously. From what some of his ex-wives have said, he’s an abusive husband, but Dubai sure survives. And while most marriages in Dubai are monogamous, I’m sure he’s not the only man in Dubai with multiple simultaneous legal wives.

teachrdan 4y ago

Ha. The reason so many stay is because it is more difficult than ever to leave. Think about it. Technology has left these people a literal century-plus behind. The longer the Amish exist, the higher the rate of retention will be. Furthermore, once you leave the Amish community, you are forever renounced by your family and friends. So you're left adrift without any support in a world that has left you behind. This leads to the question you seem to have ignored. Is longevity itself a positive trait? If an abusive cult existed for hundreds of years, would you call it a success? Hacker News readers should place a higher value on innovation and less on blind faith in tradition, in my opinion. https://abcnews.go.com/2020/amish-teens-tempted-drop/story?id=8473224 https://abcnews.go.com/2020/amish-teens-tempted-drop/story?i...

mwbajor 4y ago
I've lived next to Amish briefly and have friends that still live among them as non Amish. Im not going to argue with you because its just going to be anecdotal, but I can tell you that the kids are not brainwashed if thats what you're referring to. The "shunning" is also exaggerated. It looks like you just watched "Amish mafia" on TV. Most stay Amish because it really isn't a bad system at all. They use plenty of technology, its just approved by the community after careful consideration. They have their problems but their focus on the family is vastly superior to most of the modern day degeneracy devoted to chasing whatever fleeting pleasure is popular at the moment. They will be around for a very very long time.
rendall 4y ago
> Furthermore, once you leave the Amish community, you are forever renounced by your family and friends This is not true. Watch Devil's Playground for counter-examples.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

Most of the (many) histories of hippy communes that I've read suggest a very different reason for their (typical) breakdown. Most/many of them were founded by 1 (sometimes 2) relatively wealthy individuals who had the means (often familial) to acquire land and do the initial capital purchases necessary to get things off the ground. When/if these individuals lose interest in the commune, let alone leave, the implicit agreement that bound the community together starts to fall apart. The communities that have survived for decades after being founded in the 68-75 period almost uniformly do not have this property. Twin Oaks (VA) is perhaps the prime example. You could cite The Farm (TN) as a counter-example, but that would mostly be a diversion - The Farm survived because its founder (Steven Gaskin) never lost interest in or left the commune.