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Dual boiler machines have been a perfectly fine solution to this problem for a very, very long time. Decent's offering is good but vastly overcomplicated for t

Dual boiler machines have been a perfectly fine solution to this problem for a very, very long time. Decent's offering is good but vastly overcomplicated for the majority of people who don't want a tablet on their coffee machine in their kitchen. I much prefer the tactile experience of using a traditional espresso machine.

roflyear 4y ago
Decent has awful software, and the owner is also kind of a backwards-thinking stuck up dude, so...
- malermeister 4y ago
  Could you share more details on the owner?
  - LesZedCB 4y ago
    most of the bad stuff is interpersonal drama caused by the fact that John (Decent Owner) is fully committed to TCL for app and firmware development. some prominent community members have rewritten a lot of the front end using python and JS. when disagreements and call outs arose between this group and the owner, well, access to the company Basecamp is controlled by the owners. there are big personalities all around. as somebody who enjoys a bit of the popcorn but is uninvested in the outcome, it's not a big deal as a consumer of the machine. if you want to hack on the software, his personality is probably going to affect you a little more. of course, somebody else may step in to give a different historical account.
  - mometsi 4y ago
    No, and I do not even know him, but it irritates me to hear him everywhere called 'the Decent'.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    He abuses the idea of open source to get free work for his commercial product. They have invested near 0 dollars into development of the tablet application.
esperent 4y ago
> Dual boiler machines have been a perfectly fine solution to this problem for a very, very long time. A fine, but expensive and mechanically complex solution. Dual boiler machines generally cost thousands even for small home machines. Commercial dual boiler machines will set you back at least $10-30k, easily. Besides that, there's the warm up time. Often 30+ minutes on a commercial machine, then the electricity cost of keeping several litres of water and heavy blocks of metal at boiling point too. It's high time espresso machines got a mechanicals simpler, cheaper, more environmentally friendly update. On the home front, Breville and Decent are doing this, while commercially I think some Ascaso machines use the same tech as Decent (not 100% sure on that though and when I reached out to them about it when considering one of their machines they just told me "work with your local dealer". There's exactly one Ascaso dealer in the country and they don't speak English so that wasn't much help). Not to dismiss dual boilers or even good heat exchangers. Both of them are beautiful technological designs. But they basically haven't changed since the sixties.
- TheHappyOddish 4y ago
  What? The Breville BES920 has been around for almost a decade, takes < 5 minutes to heat both boilers and regularly is for sale for < $1000 AUD (~$500 USD).
- nullityrofl 4y ago
  > A fine, but expensive and mechanically complex solution I'm not sure I agree that they're mechanically complex. They're engineering 101. A pump, a heater and a thermostat. They're rather mechanically simple. > Dual boiler machines generally cost thousands even for small home machines. The _cheapest_ Decent is $3500. > Commercial dual boiler machines will set you back at least $10-30k, easily. You don't need a $10k-$30k machine to get a competent dual boiler. If you look at something like a Lelit Bianca, a dual boiler with preinfusion and flow control while $500 cheaper than the cheapest Decent, you can pull your first shot in 10 minutes. A home brewer making espresso on a Bianca isn't going to notice the difference on a $10k or $30k machine because at that price point what you're paying for isn't the ability to pull a shot, it's the ability to pull thousands of them every day of the year. > But they basically haven't changed since the sixties. That's true but I argue they don't need to. We don't need to iterate on everything. Technology doesn't always make things better.
stouset 4y ago
You could also use a single boiler (which are better at temperature regulation) for espresso pulls and a thermoblock for steam. That said, boilers are pretty niche for home use. In order to maintain good thermal regulation you need a decent sized mass of water. That means a long time to preheat and a lot of wasted energy. This isn't a dealbreaker for some, but for a casual consumer who pulls one or two shots per day, it's pretty lacking in convenience.

roflyear 4y ago

Decent has awful software, and the owner is also kind of a backwards-thinking stuck up dude, so...

malermeister 4y ago
Could you share more details on the owner?
- LesZedCB 4y ago
  most of the bad stuff is interpersonal drama caused by the fact that John (Decent Owner) is fully committed to TCL for app and firmware development. some prominent community members have rewritten a lot of the front end using python and JS. when disagreements and call outs arose between this group and the owner, well, access to the company Basecamp is controlled by the owners. there are big personalities all around. as somebody who enjoys a bit of the popcorn but is uninvested in the outcome, it's not a big deal as a consumer of the machine. if you want to hack on the software, his personality is probably going to affect you a little more. of course, somebody else may step in to give a different historical account.
- mometsi 4y ago
  No, and I do not even know him, but it irritates me to hear him everywhere called 'the Decent'.
- roflyear 4y ago
  He abuses the idea of open source to get free work for his commercial product. They have invested near 0 dollars into development of the tablet application.

esperent 4y ago

> Dual boiler machines have been a perfectly fine solution to this problem for a very, very long time. A fine, but expensive and mechanically complex solution. Dual boiler machines generally cost thousands even for small home machines. Commercial dual boiler machines will set you back at least $10-30k, easily. Besides that, there's the warm up time. Often 30+ minutes on a commercial machine, then the electricity cost of keeping several litres of water and heavy blocks of metal at boiling point too. It's high time espresso machines got a mechanicals simpler, cheaper, more environmentally friendly update. On the home front, Breville and Decent are doing this, while commercially I think some Ascaso machines use the same tech as Decent (not 100% sure on that though and when I reached out to them about it when considering one of their machines they just told me "work with your local dealer". There's exactly one Ascaso dealer in the country and they don't speak English so that wasn't much help). Not to dismiss dual boilers or even good heat exchangers. Both of them are beautiful technological designs. But they basically haven't changed since the sixties.

TheHappyOddish 4y ago
What? The Breville BES920 has been around for almost a decade, takes < 5 minutes to heat both boilers and regularly is for sale for < $1000 AUD (~$500 USD).
nullityrofl 4y ago
> A fine, but expensive and mechanically complex solution I'm not sure I agree that they're mechanically complex. They're engineering 101. A pump, a heater and a thermostat. They're rather mechanically simple. > Dual boiler machines generally cost thousands even for small home machines. The _cheapest_ Decent is $3500. > Commercial dual boiler machines will set you back at least $10-30k, easily. You don't need a $10k-$30k machine to get a competent dual boiler. If you look at something like a Lelit Bianca, a dual boiler with preinfusion and flow control while $500 cheaper than the cheapest Decent, you can pull your first shot in 10 minutes. A home brewer making espresso on a Bianca isn't going to notice the difference on a $10k or $30k machine because at that price point what you're paying for isn't the ability to pull a shot, it's the ability to pull thousands of them every day of the year. > But they basically haven't changed since the sixties. That's true but I argue they don't need to. We don't need to iterate on everything. Technology doesn't always make things better.

stouset 4y ago

You could also use a single boiler (which are better at temperature regulation) for espresso pulls and a thermoblock for steam. That said, boilers are pretty niche for home use. In order to maintain good thermal regulation you need a decent sized mass of water. That means a long time to preheat and a lot of wasted energy. This isn't a dealbreaker for some, but for a casual consumer who pulls one or two shots per day, it's pretty lacking in convenience.