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A minor-seeming terminology quibble that has far-reaching effects: the chat control proposal does not belong in human society. People in democratic societies d

A minor-seeming terminology quibble that has far-reaching effects: the chat control proposal does not belong in human society. People in democratic societies don't have different rights than those under other political systems; everyone has a right to speak freely and expect privacy in their communications, absent very specific situations where there is evidence that what is being discussed is unallowably dangerous to others, i.e. criminal. To tie rights to democracy not only ignores the rights of people in other systems, it makes those rights sound like arbitrary gifts of the government rather than intrinsic features of humanity.

stametseater 4y ago
Natural rights are a kind of theology. There's no scientific evidence for their existence, they're just asserted to exist. The fact that such rights are not recognized in most countries means that for practical intents and purposes, they do not exist in those countries.
- TeeMassive 4y ago
  All rights are natural. Then restrictions are made to limit them.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  If true then natural rights are an excellent example that things can exist without scientific evidence of them. Theology it may be it's a more powerful and useful concept than the one you're proposing.
  - stametseater 4y ago
    > it's a more powerful and useful concept than the one you're proposing. What is it that you think I proposed? I support the defense of that which you consider natural rights, because if they aren't defended they will cease to exist in any meaningful way. These rights did not exist since the big bang in some sort of metaphysical space, nor does human society gravitate towards them. These rights were formulated by people, and insofar as they're recognized presently it's because people risked death to make it so.
- JasonFruit 4y ago
  If what you're saying is true, then the argument that this is inappropriate to democratic societies is also undermined: what rights the people have are entirely determined by what their democratically-elected overlords grant them. The state has determined that this is appropriate; therefore, it is appropriate.
  - epups 4y ago
    No, in democratic societies you have the rule of law. This usually blocks incumbents from changing the rules as they wish. Yes of course natural rights don't really exist, but legal rights enforcing some of them are about as real as money.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > No, in democratic societies you have the rule of law. Democracy and legalism are orthogonal concepts, though both tend to be (rhetorically, if not always as much practically) ideals of liberal government.
      - epups 4y ago
        I don't follow. Are you saying that subscribing to the notion that democratic societies have certain rights protected by law is legalism?
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        I'm saying that “democracy” and “a society governed by laws and not just the present mood of whoever is in charge” are different (and, indeed, somewhat opposed—which is why early liberal theorists have a lot negative to say about “democracy”—things). The particular blend where each limits the other that has come to define liberal democratic government is not the same as the broader concept of “democracy”.
        epups 4y ago
- Zetice 4y ago
  A more useful way of thinking of "natural rights" is that "The set of rights that, if everyone were to have, would maximally smoothen interaction between individuals and groups." I don't think there's a real argument that, somewhere in our DNA, exists a list of personal freedoms every human being ought to have. Feels like an ad absurdum more than a genuine engagement, tbh...
  - stametseater 4y ago
    I seriously doubt that genetic research will ever find natural rights. These were created by philosophers, revolutionaries, soldiers, and all manner of other freedom fighter. They were not given to us by our genes, they were created by us.
- zajio1am 4y ago
  > Natural rights are a kind of theology. There's no scientific evidence for their existence, they're just asserted to exist. You can say that for most moral statements.
908B64B197 4y ago
> People in democratic societies don't have different rights than those under other political systems; everyone has a right to speak freely and expect privacy in their communications, absent very specific situations where there is evidence that what is being discussed is unallowably dangerous to others, i.e. criminal. To tie rights to democracy not only ignores the rights of people in other systems, it makes those rights sound like arbitrary gifts of the government rather than intrinsic features of humanity. That, sadly, is a uniquely American concept. I fully agree that these truths are self-evident and universal. But what's interesting to see is people from Europe and Commonwealth nations voting with their feet and deciding that they too want these freedoms (which they are entitled to!). Here in the Bay it seems there's a constant interest from EU nationals to move to America (judging by the volume of applications we get). But I've never heard anyone interested to do the reverse. Top destination for EU nationals in Academia was... right here in the US [0]. So it does seem these ideals are appealing to the young, educated and smart people in Europe. Interesting to speculate what impact the policies imposed by these non-elected EU bureaucrats will have on this demographic. [0] http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-brain-trade http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-bra...

stametseater 4y ago

Natural rights are a kind of theology. There's no scientific evidence for their existence, they're just asserted to exist. The fact that such rights are not recognized in most countries means that for practical intents and purposes, they do not exist in those countries.

TeeMassive 4y ago
All rights are natural. Then restrictions are made to limit them.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
If true then natural rights are an excellent example that things can exist without scientific evidence of them. Theology it may be it's a more powerful and useful concept than the one you're proposing.
- stametseater 4y ago
  > it's a more powerful and useful concept than the one you're proposing. What is it that you think I proposed? I support the defense of that which you consider natural rights, because if they aren't defended they will cease to exist in any meaningful way. These rights did not exist since the big bang in some sort of metaphysical space, nor does human society gravitate towards them. These rights were formulated by people, and insofar as they're recognized presently it's because people risked death to make it so.
JasonFruit 4y ago
If what you're saying is true, then the argument that this is inappropriate to democratic societies is also undermined: what rights the people have are entirely determined by what their democratically-elected overlords grant them. The state has determined that this is appropriate; therefore, it is appropriate.
- epups 4y ago
  No, in democratic societies you have the rule of law. This usually blocks incumbents from changing the rules as they wish. Yes of course natural rights don't really exist, but legal rights enforcing some of them are about as real as money.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > No, in democratic societies you have the rule of law. Democracy and legalism are orthogonal concepts, though both tend to be (rhetorically, if not always as much practically) ideals of liberal government.
    - epups 4y ago
      I don't follow. Are you saying that subscribing to the notion that democratic societies have certain rights protected by law is legalism?
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        I'm saying that “democracy” and “a society governed by laws and not just the present mood of whoever is in charge” are different (and, indeed, somewhat opposed—which is why early liberal theorists have a lot negative to say about “democracy”—things). The particular blend where each limits the other that has come to define liberal democratic government is not the same as the broader concept of “democracy”.
        epups 4y ago
Zetice 4y ago
A more useful way of thinking of "natural rights" is that "The set of rights that, if everyone were to have, would maximally smoothen interaction between individuals and groups." I don't think there's a real argument that, somewhere in our DNA, exists a list of personal freedoms every human being ought to have. Feels like an ad absurdum more than a genuine engagement, tbh...
- stametseater 4y ago
  I seriously doubt that genetic research will ever find natural rights. These were created by philosophers, revolutionaries, soldiers, and all manner of other freedom fighter. They were not given to us by our genes, they were created by us.
zajio1am 4y ago
> Natural rights are a kind of theology. There's no scientific evidence for their existence, they're just asserted to exist. You can say that for most moral statements.

908B64B197 4y ago

> People in democratic societies don't have different rights than those under other political systems; everyone has a right to speak freely and expect privacy in their communications, absent very specific situations where there is evidence that what is being discussed is unallowably dangerous to others, i.e. criminal. To tie rights to democracy not only ignores the rights of people in other systems, it makes those rights sound like arbitrary gifts of the government rather than intrinsic features of humanity. That, sadly, is a uniquely American concept. I fully agree that these truths are self-evident and universal. But what's interesting to see is people from Europe and Commonwealth nations voting with their feet and deciding that they too want these freedoms (which they are entitled to!). Here in the Bay it seems there's a constant interest from EU nationals to move to America (judging by the volume of applications we get). But I've never heard anyone interested to do the reverse. Top destination for EU nationals in Academia was... right here in the US [0]. So it does seem these ideals are appealing to the young, educated and smart people in Europe. Interesting to speculate what impact the policies imposed by these non-elected EU bureaucrats will have on this demographic. [0] http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-brain-trade http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-bra...