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Is it your claim that this doesn't happen? Here are some search terms for you, these are examples of men in women's prisons who have sexually assaulted or rape

by dover 4y ago

Is it your claim that this doesn't happen? Here are some search terms for you, these are examples of men in women's prisons who have sexually assaulted or raped women inmates while incarcerated: Janiah Monroe, Karen White, Ramel Blount. None of these men should have been there in the first place, of course.

defrost 4y ago
Clearly (to anyone conversant in English) I am not claiming no such thing has happened. I am asking how frequently this happens and, in hard risk terms, how does it compare to the risks faced by inmates of being raped by other women or by prison guards. I assume you are not claiming these events do not happen. So again I ask - do you have any relevant links re: comparative frequency, absolute occurrence, etc.
- wizzwizz4 4y ago
  I'm not convinced there have been more than five cases. Everyone cites the same ones. I would expect there to be more, given base rate – but if there were, I'd expect those cases to be yelled about, which they aren't. (That leaves open the possibility that trans people are significantly less likely to assault others… Given the correlation between being trans and autistic, and the tendency for autistic people to be highly moral, that's not a hugely far-fetched theory, but it wouldn't explain such a large discrepancy.)
- dover 4y ago
  Even one case of women prisoners being raped by men who are incarcerated in a women's prisons is sufficient to show that this recent experiment in removing this safeguarding measure for women inmates has been a failure, and must be abandoned. That we have several documented cases already only supports this point further.
  - defrost 4y ago
    Any instance of inmates being abused by other inmates or by guards in a prison system is a violation of duty of care. I absolutely agree that measures should be in place to eliminate such abuse and to uphold duty of care. You have failed to demonstrate that trans people in prisons pose any additional risk over and above what already exists - measures put in place should stop same sex abuse and guard abuse equally as well as they stop trans abuse of others (or, indeed abuse of trans by others - which you have blindly overlooked). That abuse does occur highlights a failure of protective measures overall - and the incidence of abuse by trans prisoners appears to be the very least of the actual incidents that actually occur. Unless, of course, you can actually link to actual comparative numbers. Otherwise you are just engaged in blinkered and selective pearl clutching.
    - dover 4y ago
      I'm talking about men in women's prisons. Any man can call himself a woman, and under policies that elevate "gender identity" over sex, will be believed. Effectively making women's prisons mixed-sex environments. Sex-segregation of prisons (and other spaces where women are vulnerable) exists for good reason: the safety and dignity of women. The need for this has been well-documented since the 19th century, when reformers campaigned for improvements to prison conditions, including making them separated by sex. Elizabeth Fry in particular kept extensive diaries of the horrors that women had to endure in mixed-sex prisons. This isn't "pearl clutching", as you put it, it is based on significant evidence of the risk men pose to women. Evidence that has since been added to with these cases I've cited, that resulted from prison authorities deciding to reintroduce mixed-sex environments. On the flip side, you've presented no argument whatsoever as to why men should be incarcerated in women's prisons. You appear to have simply assumed that this should be the case, and are basing your rhetoric upon this assumption.
      - wizzwizz4 4y ago
        > and under policies that elevate "gender identity" over sex, will be believed. This does not apply to the actual policies I assume you're complaining about. Please read the policies – or name them, if you have found some that work that way. > it is based on significant evidence of the risk men pose to women. Nobody's disputing that (much as I'd love to live in a world where I could). You haven't demonstrated the risk that trans women pose to the women around them. > you've presented no argument whatsoever as to why men should be incarcerated in women's prisons. I'll provide one: male-on-female prison violence is a well-established phenomenon. What do you think is going to happen when you put a handful of women in an all-male prison? … Or do they not count?

by dover 4y ago

defrost 4y ago

Clearly (to anyone conversant in English) I am not claiming no such thing has happened. I am asking how frequently this happens and, in hard risk terms, how does it compare to the risks faced by inmates of being raped by other women or by prison guards. I assume you are not claiming these events do not happen. So again I ask - do you have any relevant links re: comparative frequency, absolute occurrence, etc.

wizzwizz4 4y ago
I'm not convinced there have been more than five cases. Everyone cites the same ones. I would expect there to be more, given base rate – but if there were, I'd expect those cases to be yelled about, which they aren't. (That leaves open the possibility that trans people are significantly less likely to assault others… Given the correlation between being trans and autistic, and the tendency for autistic people to be highly moral, that's not a hugely far-fetched theory, but it wouldn't explain such a large discrepancy.)
dover 4y ago
Even one case of women prisoners being raped by men who are incarcerated in a women's prisons is sufficient to show that this recent experiment in removing this safeguarding measure for women inmates has been a failure, and must be abandoned. That we have several documented cases already only supports this point further.
- defrost 4y ago
  Any instance of inmates being abused by other inmates or by guards in a prison system is a violation of duty of care. I absolutely agree that measures should be in place to eliminate such abuse and to uphold duty of care. You have failed to demonstrate that trans people in prisons pose any additional risk over and above what already exists - measures put in place should stop same sex abuse and guard abuse equally as well as they stop trans abuse of others (or, indeed abuse of trans by others - which you have blindly overlooked). That abuse does occur highlights a failure of protective measures overall - and the incidence of abuse by trans prisoners appears to be the very least of the actual incidents that actually occur. Unless, of course, you can actually link to actual comparative numbers. Otherwise you are just engaged in blinkered and selective pearl clutching.
  - dover 4y ago
    I'm talking about men in women's prisons. Any man can call himself a woman, and under policies that elevate "gender identity" over sex, will be believed. Effectively making women's prisons mixed-sex environments. Sex-segregation of prisons (and other spaces where women are vulnerable) exists for good reason: the safety and dignity of women. The need for this has been well-documented since the 19th century, when reformers campaigned for improvements to prison conditions, including making them separated by sex. Elizabeth Fry in particular kept extensive diaries of the horrors that women had to endure in mixed-sex prisons. This isn't "pearl clutching", as you put it, it is based on significant evidence of the risk men pose to women. Evidence that has since been added to with these cases I've cited, that resulted from prison authorities deciding to reintroduce mixed-sex environments. On the flip side, you've presented no argument whatsoever as to why men should be incarcerated in women's prisons. You appear to have simply assumed that this should be the case, and are basing your rhetoric upon this assumption.
    - wizzwizz4 4y ago
      > and under policies that elevate "gender identity" over sex, will be believed. This does not apply to the actual policies I assume you're complaining about. Please read the policies – or name them, if you have found some that work that way. > it is based on significant evidence of the risk men pose to women. Nobody's disputing that (much as I'd love to live in a world where I could). You haven't demonstrated the risk that trans women pose to the women around them. > you've presented no argument whatsoever as to why men should be incarcerated in women's prisons. I'll provide one: male-on-female prison violence is a well-established phenomenon. What do you think is going to happen when you put a handful of women in an all-male prison? … Or do they not count?