4 ms·

This is whataboutism and derails the conversation. These two things are unrelated.

by pmlnr 4y ago

roenxi 4y ago
1. Why do you think 'whataboutism' is a bad thing? It is comparison. Comparison is a fine tool for reasoning about policy. Not the end of the conversation, but something to consider. 2. The corruption of EU politicians is a major concern. If they think so little of privacy that they are willing to vote for laws like this, then they should certainly have to defend why they get any privacy at all. Corruption in government is one of the most damaging things happening in our society, and total surveillance would make it easier to detect & prove when they are lying.
- pmlnr 4y ago
  > The corruption of EU politicians is a major concern Yes. I never said otherwise. > then they should certainly have to defend why they get any privacy at all That's the funny bit: they won't. They - and their family - will have the same if they use the same platforms. Which is why I firmly believe this isn't about corruption, this is about false beliefs and zealots who genuinely believe the internet and open communication is bad.
  - headsoup 4y ago
    Except that these platforms often have 'government' specific offerings that are not the same as everyone else.
- FrustratedMonky 4y ago
  In the US whataboutism is used to justify current crimes because in the past someone else did not get charged. It is a way to dismiss current crimes made by 'my side' because 'whatabout' that time 'your side' got off. It ends up reducing what can be criticized to the lowest common denominator, because you can't criticize anybody if anybody had every done it before.
  - kelipso 4y ago
    Accusations of whataboutism are basically used to stop conversations because the accuser does not like where the conversation is going.
  - mrangle 4y ago
    That's false. Whataboutism, in its traditional and non-negative sense, is the long-standing assurance of equal-enough application of the law as a defense against Bananaism. See, I can make up truly stupid neologisms as well. But at least mine isn't an effort to subvert foundational democratic norms. Because unequal application of the law isn't law. Whataboutism's necessity increases as the parties and potential charges under scrutiny are ever more alike. In Whataboutism's novel sense, it is a brain-dead effort to try to get away using the law as a politicized cudgel. You can tell by the need to invent a new word in order to describe an old concept. Insofar as their is not any legal jeopardy involved, my explanation still applies however adjusted.
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    "Precedent" is actually pretty fundamental to tons of legal systems. Because yes, it is important to call out hypocrisy. The people most concerned about whataboutisms nowadays are usually just using it as a way to completely avoid self retrospection and shield themself from what they are accusing others of. Yes, sometimes it is a non sensical argument (when you bring up something completely unrelated), but it is a very very overused online buzzword now.

This is whataboutism and derails the conversation. These two things are unrelated.

by pmlnr 4y ago

This is whataboutism and derails the conversation. These two things are unrelated.

1. Why do you think 'whataboutism' is a bad thing? It is comparison. Comparison is a fine tool for reasoning about policy. Not the end of the conversation, but something to consider. 2. The corruption of EU politicians is a major concern. If they think so little of privacy that they are willing to vote for laws like this, then they should certainly have to defend why they get any privacy at all. Corruption in government is one of the most damaging things happening in our society, and total surveillance would make it easier to detect & prove when they are lying.

pmlnr 4y ago
> The corruption of EU politicians is a major concern Yes. I never said otherwise. > then they should certainly have to defend why they get any privacy at all That's the funny bit: they won't. They - and their family - will have the same if they use the same platforms. Which is why I firmly believe this isn't about corruption, this is about false beliefs and zealots who genuinely believe the internet and open communication is bad.
- headsoup 4y ago
  Except that these platforms often have 'government' specific offerings that are not the same as everyone else.
FrustratedMonky 4y ago
In the US whataboutism is used to justify current crimes because in the past someone else did not get charged. It is a way to dismiss current crimes made by 'my side' because 'whatabout' that time 'your side' got off. It ends up reducing what can be criticized to the lowest common denominator, because you can't criticize anybody if anybody had every done it before.
- kelipso 4y ago
  Accusations of whataboutism are basically used to stop conversations because the accuser does not like where the conversation is going.
- mrangle 4y ago
  That's false. Whataboutism, in its traditional and non-negative sense, is the long-standing assurance of equal-enough application of the law as a defense against Bananaism. See, I can make up truly stupid neologisms as well. But at least mine isn't an effort to subvert foundational democratic norms. Because unequal application of the law isn't law. Whataboutism's necessity increases as the parties and potential charges under scrutiny are ever more alike. In Whataboutism's novel sense, it is a brain-dead effort to try to get away using the law as a politicized cudgel. You can tell by the need to invent a new word in order to describe an old concept. Insofar as their is not any legal jeopardy involved, my explanation still applies however adjusted.
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  "Precedent" is actually pretty fundamental to tons of legal systems. Because yes, it is important to call out hypocrisy. The people most concerned about whataboutisms nowadays are usually just using it as a way to completely avoid self retrospection and shield themself from what they are accusing others of. Yes, sometimes it is a non sensical argument (when you bring up something completely unrelated), but it is a very very overused online buzzword now.