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From Theuth, duh: >Socrates tells a brief legend, critically commenting on the gift of writing from the Egyptian god Theuth to King Thamus, who was to disperse

From Theuth, duh: >Socrates tells a brief legend, critically commenting on the gift of writing from the Egyptian god Theuth to King Thamus, who was to disperse Theuth's gifts to the people of Egypt. After Theuth remarks on his discovery of writing as a remedy for the memory, Thamus responds that its true effects are likely to be the opposite; it is a remedy for reminding, not remembering, he says, with the appearance but not the reality of wisdom. Future generations will hear much without being properly taught, and will appear wise but not be so, making them difficult to get along with. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedrus_(dialogue) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedrus_(dialogue)

peteradio 4y ago
Interesting, is the idea wisdom is not gained from reading but from direct experience?
- ElevenLathe 4y ago
  I think it's more that nobody will bother remembering stuff (and therefore being "wise") if they can just write it down and then look it up later as needed.
- agumonkey 4y ago
  To me that's a bit of both, and it's something I've often witnessed. What you "learn" from solved problems is vastly different from experiencing the problem first on your own without and idea of what to interpret from the events. That subtle knowledge is lost in scriptation (even if the scribe allocates a lot of space to details)
- wl 4y ago
  I don't think that's what Plato is getting at. In many ways, Plato's theory of forms discounts the value of direct experience. Firstly, look at memorizing as a workout for the brain. If you don't need to do as much of it, you do less of it, and you don't develop that ability as much. Socrates valued a fit mind and body and likely would have considered a good memory as an important part of mental fitness. Secondly, consider the context. Plato was a student of Socrates, who taught not by lecturing on what he thought to be true, but by posing questions to his students and discussing various possible answers. Wisdom was obtained not by passively absorbing, but by dialogue with a teacher. Plato's works take the form of a passive listener, observing such dialogs. Later in the dialogue, Socrates gives this second objection to writing in more explicit form: "Writing is unfortunately like painting; for the creations of the painter have the attitude of life, and yet if you ask them a question they preserve a solemn silence." Plato does seem to try to transcend the limitations of written form here. When Socrates relates the tale of Thamus and Theuth, Phaedrus pushes back saying Socrates can easily make up tales from foreign lands. Socrates retorts that it was enough for the men of old that they heard the truth, the source being irrelevant. Phaedrus too easily crumbles and concedes that King Thamus was right about writing. One is left with the impression that neither person has made good arguments against each other, leaving one to consider the issue further.
  - DiscourseFan 4y ago
    I remember reading a whole essay by Jacques Derrida about this exact question, and how it remains open: http://www.occt.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/derrida_platos_pharmacy.pdf http://www.occt.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/derrida_platos_... Plato is a great favorite of these French post-structuralist thinkers for exactly how he always leaves room for more questions, never giving you a final answer.
Aardwolf 4y ago
Interesting: the many-millenia old version of "tv bad", "internet bad", etc...
tsoukase 4y ago
Another simplified quote goes like that: Socrates, why don't you write any book? Because it can be used by bad people. And what if it gets to the hands of good one's? Good (smart, wise?) people don't need books...
Emanation 4y ago
>Dicson has in mind the passage in Plato's Phaedrus which I quoted in an earlier chapter, in which Socrates tells the story of the interview between the Egyptian King, Thamus and the wise Theuth who had just invented the art of writing. Thamus says that that the invention of writing will not improve memory but destroy it, because the Egyptians will trust in these 'external characters which are not part of themselves' and this will discourage 'the use of their own memory within them'. The Art of Memory, Frances A. Yates Differentiating between external characters and internal ones is kinda interesting.

peteradio 4y ago

Interesting, is the idea wisdom is not gained from reading but from direct experience?

ElevenLathe 4y ago
I think it's more that nobody will bother remembering stuff (and therefore being "wise") if they can just write it down and then look it up later as needed.
agumonkey 4y ago
To me that's a bit of both, and it's something I've often witnessed. What you "learn" from solved problems is vastly different from experiencing the problem first on your own without and idea of what to interpret from the events. That subtle knowledge is lost in scriptation (even if the scribe allocates a lot of space to details)
wl 4y ago
I don't think that's what Plato is getting at. In many ways, Plato's theory of forms discounts the value of direct experience. Firstly, look at memorizing as a workout for the brain. If you don't need to do as much of it, you do less of it, and you don't develop that ability as much. Socrates valued a fit mind and body and likely would have considered a good memory as an important part of mental fitness. Secondly, consider the context. Plato was a student of Socrates, who taught not by lecturing on what he thought to be true, but by posing questions to his students and discussing various possible answers. Wisdom was obtained not by passively absorbing, but by dialogue with a teacher. Plato's works take the form of a passive listener, observing such dialogs. Later in the dialogue, Socrates gives this second objection to writing in more explicit form: "Writing is unfortunately like painting; for the creations of the painter have the attitude of life, and yet if you ask them a question they preserve a solemn silence." Plato does seem to try to transcend the limitations of written form here. When Socrates relates the tale of Thamus and Theuth, Phaedrus pushes back saying Socrates can easily make up tales from foreign lands. Socrates retorts that it was enough for the men of old that they heard the truth, the source being irrelevant. Phaedrus too easily crumbles and concedes that King Thamus was right about writing. One is left with the impression that neither person has made good arguments against each other, leaving one to consider the issue further.
- DiscourseFan 4y ago
  I remember reading a whole essay by Jacques Derrida about this exact question, and how it remains open: http://www.occt.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/derrida_platos_pharmacy.pdf http://www.occt.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/derrida_platos_... Plato is a great favorite of these French post-structuralist thinkers for exactly how he always leaves room for more questions, never giving you a final answer.

Aardwolf 4y ago

Interesting: the many-millenia old version of "tv bad", "internet bad", etc...

tsoukase 4y ago

Another simplified quote goes like that: Socrates, why don't you write any book? Because it can be used by bad people. And what if it gets to the hands of good one's? Good (smart, wise?) people don't need books...

Emanation 4y ago

>Dicson has in mind the passage in Plato's Phaedrus which I quoted in an earlier chapter, in which Socrates tells the story of the interview between the Egyptian King, Thamus and the wise Theuth who had just invented the art of writing. Thamus says that that the invention of writing will not improve memory but destroy it, because the Egyptians will trust in these 'external characters which are not part of themselves' and this will discourage 'the use of their own memory within them'. The Art of Memory, Frances A. Yates Differentiating between external characters and internal ones is kinda interesting.