3 ms·

Who elected those guys anyway? I sure never had the chance to vote for any of them. I'd be more fine with that if they only regulated narrowly defined inter-st

Who elected those guys anyway? I sure never had the chance to vote for any of them. I'd be more fine with that if they only regulated narrowly defined inter-state issues in the EU. But stuff like this... There's no mandate. And there's no reason this couldn't be done locally in every member state where the population wants that.

pmontra 4y ago
I don't know where you are from but in my country I never voted for the President of Republic. I can't: the President is elected by the Parliament, which I vote for. I also never voted for the Prime Minister. I can't: it's appointed by the President. Despite currently being the leader of the largest party, her closest predecessors have not been the leaders of the largest party since 10 years ago. Actually the President can appoint anybody, there are not even rules about citizenship, place of residence or being elected. The previous three Prime Ministers were not elected by anyone. By the way, a government is still government even if it does not have a majority support in Parliament. It will have a hard life doing anything but technically that's not a problem. In the EU we have the Parliament, which is elected by the people, the Council which is composed by Prime Ministers, Presidents, whoever rules each country and the Commission, which is proposed by the Council and elected by the Parliament. Not so different from what I see in my country.
raverbashing 4y ago
> Who elected those guys anyway? EP elections are well publicized and every EU citizen has the right to vote on it "Every five years EU citizens choose who represents them in the European Parliament, the directly-elected institution that defends their interests in the EU decision-making process. The next European elections will take place in 2024."
- geysersam 4y ago
  Of course. I always vote in the EP election. I just find it incredible that when the results are in the people at the top are some guys I've never heard or seen before. And I don't believe I'm uncommonly ill-infomed. Moving power further away from the electorate should be a last resort for issues that can simply not be handled on the local level.
  - anonyfox 4y ago
    > I just find it incredible that when the results are in the people at the top are some guys I've never heard or seen before. And I don't believe I'm uncommonly ill-infomed. that may happen when many separate countries merge their candidate pools to form a single parliament, and its up to the parties to distribute their seats - I would think that an exact representation of members from all countries within the available seats for the party would be hard to achieve, though. > Moving power further away from the electorate should be a last resort for issues that can simply not be handled on the local level. This is true to some extend, however you have to somehow ensure that all individual pieces work in a collaborative mode and support each other, because once you get in competitive mode, its a race to the bottom for everyone.
    - geysersam 4y ago
      > because once you get in competitive mode, its a race to the bottom for everyone. I don't understand / buy that argument. I find it quite neo-liberal in the sense that it assumes countries will deterministically mindlessly engage in a race to the bottom. The "prisoners dilemma" is a problem of course. But people and countries can and do cooperate despite that. For this reason, it's not clear to me that EU countries would automatically slash their environment regulations and corruption prevention efforts in a "race to the bottom" if the EU wasn't there stopping them.
anonyfox 4y ago
Well, we actually vote for the EU parliament every 5 (?) years here in Germany. Where are you from that you didn't have to option to vote?
- geysersam 4y ago
  I vote. I just think the distance between us voters and the people who end up in the EU "government" is too big. Democracy gets diluted when the electorate becomes too large and too diverse. It's important that decisions stay as local as possible.
  - anonyfox 4y ago
    sometimes, a decision _could_ be made local, but an _even better_ ooutcome could be achieven going a bit higher level. Like, image some county that needs energy, has no natural gifts regarding that but has land to farm upon. Instead of exporting food and importing coal from somewhere to fire up a new plant, it could also exchange energy with a more gifted county that has plenty of green energy but doesn't need something from them. To make this work, a higher level entity can force the exchange, and ensure that the whole area doesn't suffer from pollution despite that being the cheapest or even only possible way for the individual county. It COULD be solved there, but everyone is worse off by not cooperating. Actually, the EU has a huge power potential if only the member states would finally cut back on individual national interests so that mutual agreements and shared legislation/taxes/military/... could be setup properly - which might worse some situations in the short term, but ensures greater wealth for everyone longterm. The "I I I" egoistic thinking of individual member states is the greatest weakness the EU has - unified we can achieve so much more!
    - geysersam 4y ago
      Sure I'm all for standardization and cooperation. But this is not that. What parlament in Europe would pass this legislation if it was a motion in the national parlament? (Assume for a second it would be feasible even for smaller countries to pass legislation that international tech giants has to comply with.)

pmontra 4y ago

I don't know where you are from but in my country I never voted for the President of Republic. I can't: the President is elected by the Parliament, which I vote for. I also never voted for the Prime Minister. I can't: it's appointed by the President. Despite currently being the leader of the largest party, her closest predecessors have not been the leaders of the largest party since 10 years ago. Actually the President can appoint anybody, there are not even rules about citizenship, place of residence or being elected. The previous three Prime Ministers were not elected by anyone. By the way, a government is still government even if it does not have a majority support in Parliament. It will have a hard life doing anything but technically that's not a problem. In the EU we have the Parliament, which is elected by the people, the Council which is composed by Prime Ministers, Presidents, whoever rules each country and the Commission, which is proposed by the Council and elected by the Parliament. Not so different from what I see in my country.

raverbashing 4y ago

> Who elected those guys anyway? EP elections are well publicized and every EU citizen has the right to vote on it "Every five years EU citizens choose who represents them in the European Parliament, the directly-elected institution that defends their interests in the EU decision-making process. The next European elections will take place in 2024."

geysersam 4y ago
Of course. I always vote in the EP election. I just find it incredible that when the results are in the people at the top are some guys I've never heard or seen before. And I don't believe I'm uncommonly ill-infomed. Moving power further away from the electorate should be a last resort for issues that can simply not be handled on the local level.
- anonyfox 4y ago
  > I just find it incredible that when the results are in the people at the top are some guys I've never heard or seen before. And I don't believe I'm uncommonly ill-infomed. that may happen when many separate countries merge their candidate pools to form a single parliament, and its up to the parties to distribute their seats - I would think that an exact representation of members from all countries within the available seats for the party would be hard to achieve, though. > Moving power further away from the electorate should be a last resort for issues that can simply not be handled on the local level. This is true to some extend, however you have to somehow ensure that all individual pieces work in a collaborative mode and support each other, because once you get in competitive mode, its a race to the bottom for everyone.
  - geysersam 4y ago
    > because once you get in competitive mode, its a race to the bottom for everyone. I don't understand / buy that argument. I find it quite neo-liberal in the sense that it assumes countries will deterministically mindlessly engage in a race to the bottom. The "prisoners dilemma" is a problem of course. But people and countries can and do cooperate despite that. For this reason, it's not clear to me that EU countries would automatically slash their environment regulations and corruption prevention efforts in a "race to the bottom" if the EU wasn't there stopping them.

anonyfox 4y ago

Well, we actually vote for the EU parliament every 5 (?) years here in Germany. Where are you from that you didn't have to option to vote?

geysersam 4y ago
I vote. I just think the distance between us voters and the people who end up in the EU "government" is too big. Democracy gets diluted when the electorate becomes too large and too diverse. It's important that decisions stay as local as possible.
- anonyfox 4y ago
  sometimes, a decision _could_ be made local, but an _even better_ ooutcome could be achieven going a bit higher level. Like, image some county that needs energy, has no natural gifts regarding that but has land to farm upon. Instead of exporting food and importing coal from somewhere to fire up a new plant, it could also exchange energy with a more gifted county that has plenty of green energy but doesn't need something from them. To make this work, a higher level entity can force the exchange, and ensure that the whole area doesn't suffer from pollution despite that being the cheapest or even only possible way for the individual county. It COULD be solved there, but everyone is worse off by not cooperating. Actually, the EU has a huge power potential if only the member states would finally cut back on individual national interests so that mutual agreements and shared legislation/taxes/military/... could be setup properly - which might worse some situations in the short term, but ensures greater wealth for everyone longterm. The "I I I" egoistic thinking of individual member states is the greatest weakness the EU has - unified we can achieve so much more!
  - geysersam 4y ago
    Sure I'm all for standardization and cooperation. But this is not that. What parlament in Europe would pass this legislation if it was a motion in the national parlament? (Assume for a second it would be feasible even for smaller countries to pass legislation that international tech giants has to comply with.)