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I’m confused by this-just as things were maybe starting to cool down a bit are they trying to start a bank run again? “All deposits assumed by First–Citizens Ba

by laser 4y ago

I’m confused by this-just as things were maybe starting to cool down a bit are they trying to start a bank run again? “All deposits assumed by First–Citizens Bank & Trust Company will continue to be insured by the FDIC up to the insurance limit.” So in other words they just pulled protection for assets over $250K in SVB accounts, transferring them to a small bank with less than half of the deposits of SVB when the run started? Who’s at the steering wheel at the FDIC and are they not coordinating with the Treasury or Fed? Am I missing something or does this seem recklessly premature given the train wreck that is still in the process of being avoided? Are they confident First-Citizens can withstand 25% of deposits getting pulled in a few days because they’re flush with cash and short term treasuries? “All transferred deposits will be separately insured from any accounts you may already have at First–Citizens Bank & Trust Company for at least six months after the failure of Silicon Valley Bank.” [1] Sounds like maybe this isn’t an issue but unclear if that’s just an extra $250K insurance in the event you had an existing account there. Maybe unrelated to insurance they're fine because First Citizens bought from SVB at discount/current FMV so they can liquidate assets if needed to meet withdrawals without risk of loss. [1] https://www.fdic.gov/resources/resolutions/bank-failures/failed-bank-list/silicon-valley.html https://www.fdic.gov/resources/resolutions/bank-failures/fai...

MarkSweep 4y ago
The FAQ says: > All transferred deposits will be separately insured from any accounts you may already have at First–Citizens Bank & Trust Company for at least six months after the failure of Silicon Valley Bank. That suggests that there is not going to be a reduction in coverage of FDIC insurance. Separately the Federal Reserve’s lending facility makes it unlikely that the same sort of long-duration treasury notes will bring down a bank. But yeah, it’s a good point that they did not explicitly spell out what sort of insurance is available for the transferred deposits.
- laser 4y ago
  Thanks! Still not clear to me if that extends beyond $250K or just not counting against an existing account held there, though. But as mentioned above they probably can just liquidate what they just bought if they need to meet large portion of deposits withdrawn. And the par value repo thing for stuff they already have makes sense would mitigate a run causing insolvency.
  - shapefrog 4y ago
    > Still not clear to me if that extends beyond $250K It does not. The deposit insurance limit was $250k before the svb collapse, it was unlimited while the (government) fdic held your account, and now it has been transfered back to a private institution it is 250k again. <Insert "it always was" meme here>
    - notch898a 4y ago
      Only after bank failure can you truly determine what your FDIC insurance limit was. Per Yellen's own admission it is decided by several committees after the bank fails how to retroactively apply the variable insurance, depending on whether they deemed it "systematic." Of course if the depositors are mostly politically connected VCs or investments of politically connected VCs you probably have a better shot of being deemed systematically important.
      - shapefrog 4y ago
        "it always was"
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      This is the simple difference between a guaranteed minimum and a discretionary maximum. In practice, FDIC covers at least 250k
- CTDOCodebases 4y ago
  It's kind of ironic that the existing fist-citizen customers are actually second class citizens when it comes to having their deposits insured.
  - q7xvh97o2pDhNrh 4y ago
    Well, sure. If you want first-class treatment, you have to go to Zeroth Citizens' Bank.
    - goldenkey 4y ago
      I heard that only reptiles can bank there.
  - frankfrankfrank 4y ago
    Is it ironic though? The whole system is inverted in that way that citizens are second class, and failure is rewarded and the injured punished, aka fraud. It’s a system that simply cannot go well for the majority of people even if the top continues their plunder and walks away with everyone else’s chips. It’s not an ironic bug if the intentions of the features are nefarious.
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      > Is it ironic though? The whole system is inverted in that way that citizens are second class, and failure is rewarded and the injured punished, aka fraud. Who exactly got rewarded here? Not the bank shareholders, not their management - only depositors got protected, aka the system actually worked for once. > It’s a system that simply cannot go well for the majority of people even if the top continues their plunder and walks away with everyone else’s chips. This simply did not happen here. It happens a lot. It didn't happen here.
      - machina_ex_deus 4y ago
        The banks got to play and invest that money off those depositors. The investment was in government bonds. So essentially, the government got to use those depositors money, and then turned around and gave them back their money. Oh and it also inflated away the value of that money. If you think this is capitalism or the system working properly, you're deeply wrong. Finally, if this thing didn't blow up, those depositors would've seen none of the profits from lending to the government which is clearly a risky business. This is the same old story, governments printing money. This time they held hostages as they were printing their money. Almost like Money heist. Funnily enough, the narrative is so strong they are somehow the heroes. Maybe because people can't understand that inflating money is stealing.
zhoutong 4y ago
Because First Citizens Bank acquired all of the deposits and loans but none of the securities, presumably the only way for the FDIC to complete the deal is to pay First Citizens Bank the difference in cash, which is roughly $63.5 billion (napkin maths: the $119B in deposits are assumed one-to-one, and $72B loans are acquired at $16.5B discount, resulting in a cash outlay of -$63.5B for the acquirer for a bundle of net assets worth -$47B on paper). If depositors start withdrawing money from the new bank, they at least have access to this amount of extra liquidity from the acquisition.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
toast0 4y ago
> Are they confident First-Citizens can withstand 25% of deposits getting pulled in a few days because they’re flush with cash and short term treasuries? I'd guess the tansferred assets are eligible for the new Bank Term Funding Program, so First-Citizens should be able to borrow cash to pay withdrawals in a way that SVB couldn't. I'd expect everyone involved to be aware of the danger of a bank run from this group of customers, and plan accordingly. Of course, expecting others to act sensibly is not always justified.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  > Bank Term Funding Program I like that they didn't call it TARP 2.0
  - hindsightbias 4y ago
    GALT 2.0 would be more appropriate
  - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
    The assets aren’t “troubled” in the same way. Indeed they actually have very low default risk because they have such low rates.
  - comte7092 4y ago
    It’s the deposits, not the assets that are the problem in this case.
- nr378 4y ago
  Eligible collateral under the Bank Term Funding program must be "direct obligations of, and obligations fully guaranteed as to principal and interest by, the United States", this covers assets such as U.S. Treasuries, U.S. agency securities, and U.S. agency mortgage-backed securities, but importantly doesn't cover any of SVB's $72bn loan book. (It does cover much of their $90bn of remaining securities that weren't transferred.) First Citizens does however have existing assets that would count as eligible collateral.
- taeric 4y ago
shapefrog 4y ago
> Are they confident First-Citizens can withstand 25% of deposits getting pulled in a few days because they’re flush with cash and short term treasuries? Yes. The number gamed will likely be > 50% given the type of customers they are dealing with.
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
>I’m confused by this-just as things were maybe starting to cool down a bit are they trying to start a bank run again? The Fed just reversed a lot of quantitative tightening so they are feeling free to be reckless again. https://twitter.com/SJosephBurns/status/1639218079719649280 https://twitter.com/SJosephBurns/status/1639218079719649280
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  [flagged]
- sdfghswe 4y ago
  You're being downvoted because you're claiming nonsense with certainty. I'd suggest you stop following conspiracy theorists like joseph burns. The tweet you linked shows the Fed's balance sheet. Yes, QE implies that balance sheet up. But not the other way around. Correlation is not causation. P.S. loved your meltdown, copy pasting it here for posterity > FollowingTheDao 10 minutes ago | root | parent | next [–] > I FCKING HATE IT HERE AND I QUIT! WHY THE FCK IS THE TRUTH BEING DOWNVOTED! > IS IT NOT TRUE THAT THE FED REVERSED QT??? IS IT NOT TRUE THAT THIS MENAS BANKS CAN PUT MONEY BACK INTO RISKY ASSEST??? > YOU ARE ALL DELUSIONAL! CANCEL MY FCKING ACCOUNT SO I CANNOT DOWNVOTE ALL YOU IDIOTS INTO OBLIVION! > YOU HERE ME @DANG??? > I cannot wait for the Depression to hit and all you will be like "what?" and not know what to do. BYE! Maybe next time don't refer to your nonsense as "the truth"?
neilwilson 4y ago
The BTFP and other schemes from the Fed will provide any necessary liquidity to cover flight at par. Remember that flight just means one bank is down and another is up at the Fed. All it needs is for the target bank(s), or the Fed to lend back and the circuit is closed. Everybody wins - particularly the bank buying assets at a huge haircut.
- foolinaround 4y ago
  > Everybody wins Doesn't someone have to lose? I am guessing the tax-payers lose somehow, though I don't understand how..
acchow 4y ago
After the SVB thing, the fed set up a new facility "Bank Term Funding Program (BTFP)" which will provide liquidity to banks so they won't go the way of SVB.

by laser 4y ago

MarkSweep 4y ago

The FAQ says: > All transferred deposits will be separately insured from any accounts you may already have at First–Citizens Bank & Trust Company for at least six months after the failure of Silicon Valley Bank. That suggests that there is not going to be a reduction in coverage of FDIC insurance. Separately the Federal Reserve’s lending facility makes it unlikely that the same sort of long-duration treasury notes will bring down a bank. But yeah, it’s a good point that they did not explicitly spell out what sort of insurance is available for the transferred deposits.

laser 4y ago
Thanks! Still not clear to me if that extends beyond $250K or just not counting against an existing account held there, though. But as mentioned above they probably can just liquidate what they just bought if they need to meet large portion of deposits withdrawn. And the par value repo thing for stuff they already have makes sense would mitigate a run causing insolvency.
- shapefrog 4y ago
  > Still not clear to me if that extends beyond $250K It does not. The deposit insurance limit was $250k before the svb collapse, it was unlimited while the (government) fdic held your account, and now it has been transfered back to a private institution it is 250k again. <Insert "it always was" meme here>
  - notch898a 4y ago
    Only after bank failure can you truly determine what your FDIC insurance limit was. Per Yellen's own admission it is decided by several committees after the bank fails how to retroactively apply the variable insurance, depending on whether they deemed it "systematic." Of course if the depositors are mostly politically connected VCs or investments of politically connected VCs you probably have a better shot of being deemed systematically important.
    - shapefrog 4y ago
      "it always was"
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    This is the simple difference between a guaranteed minimum and a discretionary maximum. In practice, FDIC covers at least 250k
CTDOCodebases 4y ago
It's kind of ironic that the existing fist-citizen customers are actually second class citizens when it comes to having their deposits insured.
- q7xvh97o2pDhNrh 4y ago
  Well, sure. If you want first-class treatment, you have to go to Zeroth Citizens' Bank.
  - goldenkey 4y ago
    I heard that only reptiles can bank there.
- frankfrankfrank 4y ago
  Is it ironic though? The whole system is inverted in that way that citizens are second class, and failure is rewarded and the injured punished, aka fraud. It’s a system that simply cannot go well for the majority of people even if the top continues their plunder and walks away with everyone else’s chips. It’s not an ironic bug if the intentions of the features are nefarious.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    > Is it ironic though? The whole system is inverted in that way that citizens are second class, and failure is rewarded and the injured punished, aka fraud. Who exactly got rewarded here? Not the bank shareholders, not their management - only depositors got protected, aka the system actually worked for once. > It’s a system that simply cannot go well for the majority of people even if the top continues their plunder and walks away with everyone else’s chips. This simply did not happen here. It happens a lot. It didn't happen here.
    - machina_ex_deus 4y ago
      The banks got to play and invest that money off those depositors. The investment was in government bonds. So essentially, the government got to use those depositors money, and then turned around and gave them back their money. Oh and it also inflated away the value of that money. If you think this is capitalism or the system working properly, you're deeply wrong. Finally, if this thing didn't blow up, those depositors would've seen none of the profits from lending to the government which is clearly a risky business. This is the same old story, governments printing money. This time they held hostages as they were printing their money. Almost like Money heist. Funnily enough, the narrative is so strong they are somehow the heroes. Maybe because people can't understand that inflating money is stealing.

zhoutong 4y ago

Because First Citizens Bank acquired all of the deposits and loans but none of the securities, presumably the only way for the FDIC to complete the deal is to pay First Citizens Bank the difference in cash, which is roughly $63.5 billion (napkin maths: the $119B in deposits are assumed one-to-one, and $72B loans are acquired at $16.5B discount, resulting in a cash outlay of -$63.5B for the acquirer for a bundle of net assets worth -$47B on paper). If depositors start withdrawing money from the new bank, they at least have access to this amount of extra liquidity from the acquisition.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

toast0 4y ago

> Are they confident First-Citizens can withstand 25% of deposits getting pulled in a few days because they’re flush with cash and short term treasuries? I'd guess the tansferred assets are eligible for the new Bank Term Funding Program, so First-Citizens should be able to borrow cash to pay withdrawals in a way that SVB couldn't. I'd expect everyone involved to be aware of the danger of a bank run from this group of customers, and plan accordingly. Of course, expecting others to act sensibly is not always justified.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
> Bank Term Funding Program I like that they didn't call it TARP 2.0
- hindsightbias 4y ago
  GALT 2.0 would be more appropriate
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  The assets aren’t “troubled” in the same way. Indeed they actually have very low default risk because they have such low rates.
- comte7092 4y ago
  It’s the deposits, not the assets that are the problem in this case.
nr378 4y ago
Eligible collateral under the Bank Term Funding program must be "direct obligations of, and obligations fully guaranteed as to principal and interest by, the United States", this covers assets such as U.S. Treasuries, U.S. agency securities, and U.S. agency mortgage-backed securities, but importantly doesn't cover any of SVB's $72bn loan book. (It does cover much of their $90bn of remaining securities that weren't transferred.) First Citizens does however have existing assets that would count as eligible collateral.
taeric 4y ago

shapefrog 4y ago

> Are they confident First-Citizens can withstand 25% of deposits getting pulled in a few days because they’re flush with cash and short term treasuries? Yes. The number gamed will likely be > 50% given the type of customers they are dealing with.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago

>I’m confused by this-just as things were maybe starting to cool down a bit are they trying to start a bank run again? The Fed just reversed a lot of quantitative tightening so they are feeling free to be reckless again. https://twitter.com/SJosephBurns/status/1639218079719649280 https://twitter.com/SJosephBurns/status/1639218079719649280

FollowingTheDao 4y ago
[flagged]
sdfghswe 4y ago
You're being downvoted because you're claiming nonsense with certainty. I'd suggest you stop following conspiracy theorists like joseph burns. The tweet you linked shows the Fed's balance sheet. Yes, QE implies that balance sheet up. But not the other way around. Correlation is not causation. P.S. loved your meltdown, copy pasting it here for posterity > FollowingTheDao 10 minutes ago | root | parent | next [–] > I FCKING HATE IT HERE AND I QUIT! WHY THE FCK IS THE TRUTH BEING DOWNVOTED! > IS IT NOT TRUE THAT THE FED REVERSED QT??? IS IT NOT TRUE THAT THIS MENAS BANKS CAN PUT MONEY BACK INTO RISKY ASSEST??? > YOU ARE ALL DELUSIONAL! CANCEL MY FCKING ACCOUNT SO I CANNOT DOWNVOTE ALL YOU IDIOTS INTO OBLIVION! > YOU HERE ME @DANG??? > I cannot wait for the Depression to hit and all you will be like "what?" and not know what to do. BYE! Maybe next time don't refer to your nonsense as "the truth"?

neilwilson 4y ago

The BTFP and other schemes from the Fed will provide any necessary liquidity to cover flight at par. Remember that flight just means one bank is down and another is up at the Fed. All it needs is for the target bank(s), or the Fed to lend back and the circuit is closed. Everybody wins - particularly the bank buying assets at a huge haircut.

foolinaround 4y ago
> Everybody wins Doesn't someone have to lose? I am guessing the tax-payers lose somehow, though I don't understand how..

acchow 4y ago

After the SVB thing, the fed set up a new facility "Bank Term Funding Program (BTFP)" which will provide liquidity to banks so they won't go the way of SVB.