5 ms·

men and women are not equal

by foolfoolz 4y ago

xkcd1963 4y ago
Only when it comes to some biological factors. Most of what we believe separates men from women is learned behavior.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  That still counts in practice. We can't immediately rewind time and redo things, even if we wanted to.
- lone_haxx0r 4y ago
  > Most of what we believe separates men from women is learned behavior. I haven't seen convincing evidence to support this. There's the possibility that the differences we see in the higher echelons of chess arise from biological differences between men and women. But that possibility is not being explored for political/social reasons.
  - xkcd1963 4y ago
    Ultimately we are all products of evolution. While some aspects of our nature are instinctive (no external sensorial input is needed to exhibit certain hebaviour), others we learn from observing the surrounding (external sensorial input). If you say all behavior is ultimatelly biological, well, of course you are right, but you are not considering what could have been observed learned behavior on the way.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Swizec 4y ago
  The point of segregating physical sports is to give women (people who went through female puberty) a fighting chance. There’s a famous experiment by the Williams sisters, two of the best female tennis players ever, who got demolished by a guy ranked 203rd in the world. There is no way for a woman to make up the testosterone difference in sports where physical prowess matters. https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-the-williams-sisters-vs-karsten-braasch-the-world-no-203-destroyed-serena-williams-venus-williams-battle-sexes https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-the-williams-sisters... No that doesn’t mean every man is fitter than every woman. It matters in top ranks of a sport.
  - xkcd1963 4y ago
    But chess is not a sport. Think about it, how many calories do I burn sitting in a chair and moving my hands occasionally?! And no, the brain consumes mostly sugars.
    - Swizec 4y ago
      Interestingly, grandmasters burn ridiculous energy during tournaments. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/22/chess-grandmasters-lose-weight-burn-calories-during-games.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/22/chess-grandmasters-lose-weig...
      - xkcd1963 4y ago
        Hm, interesting. But doing sports do all kind of things to muscles. And physiology wise men have more muscles. But intelligence is the same for men and women. EDIT: They don't cite any papers though
jacquesm 4y ago
In the context of a discussion about chess, they are.
- jfengel 4y ago
  In the context of a discussion about how chess players (and people in general) are treated, however, they are not.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    It would be, but that isn't this particular discussion, this is about chess. And so for all intents and purposes men and women are equal.
    - jfengel 4y ago
      This discussion is about tournaments, which are about a lot more than what happens over the board.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  In Sweden, a mere 3% of adult chess club players are women. Women and men then evidently feel quite differently about playing chess (I don't have an explanation.)
  - sacnoradhq 4y ago
    Although gender is a political correctness nuclear landmine, imagine if chess had aptitude diversity rules. "No, you can't castle if your Elo is 800+." My impression is contract bridge has somewhat gender parity in terms of who plays it. [0] The ranking of contract bridge players doesn't appear to measure current quantitative strength, which seems to encourage volume of play rather than skill. 0. https://www.acbl.org/tournament/ https://www.acbl.org/tournament/
- stametseater 4y ago
  > The title of Grandmaster, along with the lesser FIDE titles of International Master (IM), FIDE Master (FM), and Candidate Master (CM), is open to all players regardless of gender. The great majority of grandmasters are men, but 40 women have been awarded the GM title as of 2022, out of a total of about 2000 grandmasters. Since about the year 2000, most of the top 10 women have held the GM title. There is also a Woman Grandmaster title with lower requirements awarded only to women. Seems like yes.. but also no. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_(chess) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_(chess)

men and women are not equal

xkcd1963 4y ago

Only when it comes to some biological factors. Most of what we believe separates men from women is learned behavior.

hgsgm 4y ago
That still counts in practice. We can't immediately rewind time and redo things, even if we wanted to.
lone_haxx0r 4y ago
> Most of what we believe separates men from women is learned behavior. I haven't seen convincing evidence to support this. There's the possibility that the differences we see in the higher echelons of chess arise from biological differences between men and women. But that possibility is not being explored for political/social reasons.
- xkcd1963 4y ago
  Ultimately we are all products of evolution. While some aspects of our nature are instinctive (no external sensorial input is needed to exhibit certain hebaviour), others we learn from observing the surrounding (external sensorial input). If you say all behavior is ultimatelly biological, well, of course you are right, but you are not considering what could have been observed learned behavior on the way.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Swizec 4y ago
The point of segregating physical sports is to give women (people who went through female puberty) a fighting chance. There’s a famous experiment by the Williams sisters, two of the best female tennis players ever, who got demolished by a guy ranked 203rd in the world. There is no way for a woman to make up the testosterone difference in sports where physical prowess matters. https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-the-williams-sisters-vs-karsten-braasch-the-world-no-203-destroyed-serena-williams-venus-williams-battle-sexes https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-the-williams-sisters... No that doesn’t mean every man is fitter than every woman. It matters in top ranks of a sport.
- xkcd1963 4y ago
  But chess is not a sport. Think about it, how many calories do I burn sitting in a chair and moving my hands occasionally?! And no, the brain consumes mostly sugars.
  - Swizec 4y ago
    Interestingly, grandmasters burn ridiculous energy during tournaments. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/22/chess-grandmasters-lose-weight-burn-calories-during-games.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/22/chess-grandmasters-lose-weig...
    - xkcd1963 4y ago
      Hm, interesting. But doing sports do all kind of things to muscles. And physiology wise men have more muscles. But intelligence is the same for men and women. EDIT: They don't cite any papers though

jacquesm 4y ago

In the context of a discussion about chess, they are.

jfengel 4y ago
In the context of a discussion about how chess players (and people in general) are treated, however, they are not.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  It would be, but that isn't this particular discussion, this is about chess. And so for all intents and purposes men and women are equal.
  - jfengel 4y ago
    This discussion is about tournaments, which are about a lot more than what happens over the board.
kzrdude 4y ago
In Sweden, a mere 3% of adult chess club players are women. Women and men then evidently feel quite differently about playing chess (I don't have an explanation.)
- sacnoradhq 4y ago
  Although gender is a political correctness nuclear landmine, imagine if chess had aptitude diversity rules. "No, you can't castle if your Elo is 800+." My impression is contract bridge has somewhat gender parity in terms of who plays it. [0] The ranking of contract bridge players doesn't appear to measure current quantitative strength, which seems to encourage volume of play rather than skill. 0. https://www.acbl.org/tournament/ https://www.acbl.org/tournament/
stametseater 4y ago
> The title of Grandmaster, along with the lesser FIDE titles of International Master (IM), FIDE Master (FM), and Candidate Master (CM), is open to all players regardless of gender. The great majority of grandmasters are men, but 40 women have been awarded the GM title as of 2022, out of a total of about 2000 grandmasters. Since about the year 2000, most of the top 10 women have held the GM title. There is also a Woman Grandmaster title with lower requirements awarded only to women. Seems like yes.. but also no. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_(chess) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_(chess)