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If you tell your bathroom remodelers that you want green tiles after they have already done half of it with red and by the way you want the bathtub in a differe

If you tell your bathroom remodelers that you want green tiles after they have already done half of it with red and by the way you want the bathtub in a different place and you also aren’t sure yet if if you need a toilet bowl then their estimates will get out of hand pretty quickly. And your bathroom should be able to handle a 200 person family just in case although right now there are only two people in the house. And to save money you hire people from the street who don’t speak your language and have no experience but we all know one worker is one worker. They are all the same so when you hire cheap workers your cost is less without loss of productivity.

ycombobreaker 4y ago
Why would you change plans and expect the construction crew's prior estimate to remain unchanged? Estimates change if the project changes. A commercial developer's job includes recognizing that and communicating changes upstream. Usually that leads to a negotiation, collectively determining how much to (try to) spend and which boondoggles are trutly important. If a hired software developer told me up front, "I can't estimate because you will change things and then the old estimate will be wrong," all I can conclude is that this relationship is already dysfunctional.
- mumblemumble 4y ago
  > I can conclude is that this relationship is already dysfunctional. Here's the thing, though: you wouldn't be wrong. It may be different for contract development. For in-house development though, everywhere I've worked we've all always known that the relationship is dysfunctional. We also know that the dysfunction is everyone else's fault, not our own. So we just put up with it, because those assholes will never consent to fixing it, anyway, and just try to shift the blame to us instead.
  - ycombobreaker 4y ago
    Yeah I'm used to in-house, no material contract experience. > the dysfunction is everyone else's fault, not our own I specifically said the relationship. It takes two parties for effective communication to occur. An engineer who have given up trying because they assume experienced management will not listen, is just as bad as a manager that steamrolls their experienced engineers.
    - mumblemumble 4y ago
      Yeah. What I'm getting at is that I think the relationship is doomed to dysfunction by a dysfunctional culture.
- rqtwteye 4y ago
  In most companies it works this way "Give me an estimate based on what I am telling you now. I haven't really thought it through and there are a lot of unknowns I view this estimate as a commitment that should be kept although I will probably make a lot of changes during development"
  - scruple 4y ago
    I think this is close. IMO, the problem is that we're talking about a group of concepts using vague language. Is it an estimate, a target, or a deadline? "Estimate" gets used in place for targets and deadlines all of the time and it sets up situations where expectations aren't properly managed.
- mawadev 4y ago
  This is the trick, everyone in the room knows it makes no sense. You change the requirements and then hold someone accountable for an estimate that is based off of different, often simpler requirements. What you do is extract an extra amount of economic output out of your worker, who wouldn't say no to that? Then when it hits the wall, it's the dev's fault anyway. If it works out, you get a pat on the back! If the dev says NO, the dev will still have to do the work and may even be coerced into doing so. Many junior developers think it's their fault, but they're being manipulated. That's why nobody likes seniors, too.
UncleMeat 4y ago
Of course. If management expects precise estimates then they need to provide precise requirements and be okay with adjusted timelines if they change the requirements. But that's fine. They can do that.
- cardanome 4y ago
  > then they need to provide precise requirements > They can do that. Yeah, no, they can't. Not at all. While some, or a lot of that, is due to incompetence, it is also due to the nature of the beast: Software Development is an iterative process. You have to prototype and figure out what works and what not. So regardless on how tight your processes are, whether you use agile or waterfall, it will never be possible to give perfect time estimates. You can only improve your risk-management.
booleandilemma 4y ago
No no no a bathroom isn't going to work anymore, we need a kitchen now.
- rqtwteye 4y ago
  "For competent people it should be pretty easy to convert the bathroom into a kitchen"

ycombobreaker 4y ago

Why would you change plans and expect the construction crew's prior estimate to remain unchanged? Estimates change if the project changes. A commercial developer's job includes recognizing that and communicating changes upstream. Usually that leads to a negotiation, collectively determining how much to (try to) spend and which boondoggles are trutly important. If a hired software developer told me up front, "I can't estimate because you will change things and then the old estimate will be wrong," all I can conclude is that this relationship is already dysfunctional.

mumblemumble 4y ago
> I can conclude is that this relationship is already dysfunctional. Here's the thing, though: you wouldn't be wrong. It may be different for contract development. For in-house development though, everywhere I've worked we've all always known that the relationship is dysfunctional. We also know that the dysfunction is everyone else's fault, not our own. So we just put up with it, because those assholes will never consent to fixing it, anyway, and just try to shift the blame to us instead.
- ycombobreaker 4y ago
  Yeah I'm used to in-house, no material contract experience. > the dysfunction is everyone else's fault, not our own I specifically said the relationship. It takes two parties for effective communication to occur. An engineer who have given up trying because they assume experienced management will not listen, is just as bad as a manager that steamrolls their experienced engineers.
  - mumblemumble 4y ago
    Yeah. What I'm getting at is that I think the relationship is doomed to dysfunction by a dysfunctional culture.
rqtwteye 4y ago
In most companies it works this way "Give me an estimate based on what I am telling you now. I haven't really thought it through and there are a lot of unknowns I view this estimate as a commitment that should be kept although I will probably make a lot of changes during development"
- scruple 4y ago
  I think this is close. IMO, the problem is that we're talking about a group of concepts using vague language. Is it an estimate, a target, or a deadline? "Estimate" gets used in place for targets and deadlines all of the time and it sets up situations where expectations aren't properly managed.
mawadev 4y ago
This is the trick, everyone in the room knows it makes no sense. You change the requirements and then hold someone accountable for an estimate that is based off of different, often simpler requirements. What you do is extract an extra amount of economic output out of your worker, who wouldn't say no to that? Then when it hits the wall, it's the dev's fault anyway. If it works out, you get a pat on the back! If the dev says NO, the dev will still have to do the work and may even be coerced into doing so. Many junior developers think it's their fault, but they're being manipulated. That's why nobody likes seniors, too.

UncleMeat 4y ago

Of course. If management expects precise estimates then they need to provide precise requirements and be okay with adjusted timelines if they change the requirements. But that's fine. They can do that.

cardanome 4y ago
> then they need to provide precise requirements > They can do that. Yeah, no, they can't. Not at all. While some, or a lot of that, is due to incompetence, it is also due to the nature of the beast: Software Development is an iterative process. You have to prototype and figure out what works and what not. So regardless on how tight your processes are, whether you use agile or waterfall, it will never be possible to give perfect time estimates. You can only improve your risk-management.

booleandilemma 4y ago

No no no a bathroom isn't going to work anymore, we need a kitchen now.

rqtwteye 4y ago
"For competent people it should be pretty easy to convert the bathroom into a kitchen"