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Who is "society"? Users of cryptocurrencies obviously find them useful, or hope they will be in future. The alternative to cryptocurrency and blockchain contrac

Who is "society"? Users of cryptocurrencies obviously find them useful, or hope they will be in future. The alternative to cryptocurrency and blockchain contracts are global alliances that make trading in dollars easy in all important markets and enforce contracts across jurisdictions. Billions of people who are not part of these alliances are left out and the rest are reliant on US/Europe remaining leading superpowers forever, those in power not developing a grudge against one's business and status quo enforced through military violence. Even if we assume that Western led single market / contract arbitration regime is the way to go, threat of alternatives like crypto is the best way to get its rulemakers to behave, like to not cut off businesses that don't appeal to their sensibilities or devalue dollar with unreasonable speed. It is currently possible to order cannabis with credit card over a cell phone app. Without understanding that people would otherwise just use crypto and also evade taxes and any regulations, I am not so sure that would be the case.

simonw 4y ago
"Users of cryptocurrencies obviously find them useful, or hope they will be in future" Do they hope they'll be useful in the future because they think they're great technology that everyone should benefit from... or do they want them to be useful because they bought in early and want to get rich?
- chank 4y ago
  Why not both?
- firmnoodle 4y ago
  In most cases it's both. Like the people who were early to the Internet, they believe in a better world and they hope their early participation will be rewarded.
  - simonw 4y ago
    I was early to the internet, and the only financial benefit I ever expected from it was that I'd be able to have a good career because of the skills I'd developed.
  - the_snooze 4y ago
    The folks who set up ARPANET and sent the first emails in the 1970s sure must be enjoying their billionaire lifestyle these days.
  - POiNTx 4y ago
    I think early adopters more excited about being able to communicate in a fundamentally new way. The internet is more like the invention of the radio or tv. Crypto is more like the invention of electronic cryptographically secure beanie babies with a semi-fixed supply.
- hakfoo 4y ago
  There's some interesting technology and philosophy angles there. ("What exactly is money and how does it work?") But the moment crypto became a speculative asset, it jumped the rails. We get a lot of obviously not-ready-for-prime-time stuff hitting production because it's too lucrative (see any number of DAO and smart-contract schemes that imploded), and there's a systemic allergy to input from the outside world as to what normal consumers want (things like reversability and systemic backstops), because the current system appeals to speculators. I'd see the case for "useful in the future" if there were more efforts to answer the no-breakthrough-tech-required "faster horses" problems people have with mainstream finance. FedNow is coming in months and will give me settlement in minutes for pennies, and likely very solid legal backing. This is faster horses. Crypto might offer similar settlement speeds, but I understand it depends on the particular chain I choose, and to an extent, how much I'm willing to pay to push the transaction through. I'd also wonder how reliably the courts will accept a crypto paper trail if there's ever a dispute on a payment. (Not necessarily because the trail is bogus, but simply because it's not a well-established precedent of who and what can be trusted)
  - status200 4y ago
    Quick rant: it was so much fun playing with and testing the ETH ecosystem, it felt like we were really trying to reinvent how finance worked and outsourcing trust to static contracts. It felt like decentralized systems were at least plausible. Then Elon and the second Doge wave happened... Mutant Ape NFTs getting hyped by people like Paris Hilton and Jimmy Fallon... Sam Bankman's clear deception and FTX buying sports stadiums... the same centralized actors that we were working to get away from completely hijacked the platform, seized the narrative, and basically tarnished all the fun aspects. It felt like when Facebook no longer required .edu emails and a flood of parents and spammers took over the website.
- AviationAtom 4y ago
  Anyone that's bought in during the past few years isn't early. Those that held pre-2017 are the ones that got in early. The rest could probably make better returns speculating in the US markets.
  - birracerveza 4y ago
    5 years ago, somewhere on the internet: >Anyone that's bought in during the past few years isn't early. >Those that held pre-2012 are the ones that got in early. >The rest could probably make better returns speculating in the US markets.
    - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
      Just like everything it depends on what you buy and when you buy and sell it. Post 2017 the largest theoretical gain from bitcoin so far was about 20x, if you bought at the post 2017 low in December of 2018 and sold at the 2021 high almost three years later. Gamestop stock almost matched that 20x for 2020-21 gains alone. Apple has been up well over 500x in the last 20 years. Ethereum was a better deal during this time, but you'd have to know to buy it. And some people really made bank on altcoins, but again, right time to buy, right time to sell. There's a limit on how much the crypto market can be worth with people still able to use it as a currency to buy things. Logarithmically we're closer to the top than to the original bottom, though like all markets timing can still yield very good returns, especially if everyone else is hodling like Fort Knox.
      - AviationAtom 4y ago
        That's the problem with many hyped assets: they're only profitable in the short term if you buy in before the pump, and sell before the dump. I still believe Ethereum is poised for a fair amount of growth in the long-term, though likely nothing near the rise it's enjoyed in it's last run. I say that only because it's an on-ramp to so many other cryptocurrencies.
        anonymouskimmer 4y ago
- miohtama 4y ago
  Wouldn't this be the same question for all venture capital?
- amjnsx 4y ago
  “ or do they want them to be useful because they bought in early and want to get rich?” You could say that about any investment surely? Or do we assume all VC funded companies are altruistic endeavours only?
hfsygcf 4y ago
“user of cryptocurrencies”. It’s scammers, ramsomers, speculators and illicit drugs all the way down.
- copymoro 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    This is like the gingerbread man in the gingerbread house meme.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    A Ponzi scheme pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors. The US economy has problems, but I don't see how that's supposed to be one of them. I don't think it's even (in 2023) a good model for BTC, although the adverts I saw for it when I first heard about it around the $250 price absolutely were that, and there are plenty of clone-coins that still do today.
    - jkepler 4y ago
      > A Ponzi scheme pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors. You just described how Social Security in the USA is funded. Its billed as government-run social insurance, but funded as a ponzi.
      - ben_w 4y ago
        1. "Profits" is a relevant keyword there. 2. If Social Security were to fail, the US government would be free to decide between canning it (or reducing it) or funding it from more taxes (or delaying retirement age, which is kinda both); in none of these cases is this itself going to threaten the USA economy or the USD currency.
        deleted 4y ago
rektide 4y ago
Society is the unspecific. It's the masses. Who are this earthship. Non-society is everyone who sets themselves apart.
femiagbabiaka 4y ago
How does shifting from a physical currency based on the petrodollar to a digital currency backed by the petrodollar address any of this? Technology cannot solve problems of power…
- landemva 4y ago
  The story of 'dollar backed by petrol' is fiction. Petrodollar exists as much as a corndollar exists. The dollar is US Treasury debt.
  - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
    If I follow your train of logic, why does Russia carry USD reserves?
    - landemva 4y ago
      Currencies are used to facilitate settlement of international trade. Trade in various goods and services. Central banks often carry reserves of various currencies to help with those international settlements and to manipulate currency values.
      - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
        I see now -- the specific label of petro is wrong, but the general idea that the hegemonic control of critical commodities -> currency control is not then? And saying petrodollar would be like saying porkyuen or semiconductoryuen or something similar
        landemva 4y ago
        That label was descriptive for a time. The times have changed, and now it's might makes right.
  - lowkey 4y ago
    When was the last time the US invaded a country in false pretenses for trading corn in another currency? The US claimed to invade Iraq because they were holding WMD. US led NATO forces claimed to liberate Libya because, checks notes, they were mistreating rebels in a “civil war” orchestrated by the CIA. Yet both Iraq and Libya had the nerve to try and trade their oil in currencies other than USD. Coincidence?
jonahrd 4y ago
It's a pretty big claim to say the ability to purchase cannabis online is due to crypto. The legalization movement started well before crypto, and the consumer laziness to anything except online shopping has also been around a long time. It's a pretty "natural" development. Also, it's not available everywhere.
Melingo 4y ago
[flagged]
0xDEF 4y ago
>Billions of people who are not part of these alliances are left out and the rest are reliant on US/Europe remaining leading superpowers forever, those in power not developing a grudge against one's business and status quo enforced through military violence. The claim that the only reason the US dollar is the reserve currency of the world is because the US military would invade anyone who uses something else is so often repeated on HN and reddit that is has become canon. It would be interesting to read something that goes deeper into that topic. In the mean time someone should tell European pension funds that they should not be betting what amounts to the combined GDP of several nations on just the S&P500.
- qeternity 4y ago
  > The claim that the only reason the US dollar is the reserve currency of the world is because the US military would invade anyone who uses something else is so often repeated on HN and reddit that is has become canon. No, it isn’t. Nobody said this, certainly not GP. What is canon is that US military might gives its economy a level of stability not enjoyed by any other country, and when combined with the size of the economy, makes the dollar an important asset for nearly everyone. Most countries in the world don’t use the dollar, and yet the dollar remains hugely important to those economies. Who is suggesting the US is going to invade those countries?
- cat_plus_plus 4y ago
  US military would move against agents who disturbs free trade between willing participants, in circumstances where US itself is not trying to restrict free trade with sanctions. More or less, also not saying it's always a negative, just that it doesn't cover everyone's needs and is not guaranteed to do so for eternity.

simonw 4y ago

"Users of cryptocurrencies obviously find them useful, or hope they will be in future" Do they hope they'll be useful in the future because they think they're great technology that everyone should benefit from... or do they want them to be useful because they bought in early and want to get rich?

chank 4y ago
Why not both?
firmnoodle 4y ago
In most cases it's both. Like the people who were early to the Internet, they believe in a better world and they hope their early participation will be rewarded.
- simonw 4y ago
  I was early to the internet, and the only financial benefit I ever expected from it was that I'd be able to have a good career because of the skills I'd developed.
- the_snooze 4y ago
  The folks who set up ARPANET and sent the first emails in the 1970s sure must be enjoying their billionaire lifestyle these days.
- POiNTx 4y ago
  I think early adopters more excited about being able to communicate in a fundamentally new way. The internet is more like the invention of the radio or tv. Crypto is more like the invention of electronic cryptographically secure beanie babies with a semi-fixed supply.
hakfoo 4y ago
There's some interesting technology and philosophy angles there. ("What exactly is money and how does it work?") But the moment crypto became a speculative asset, it jumped the rails. We get a lot of obviously not-ready-for-prime-time stuff hitting production because it's too lucrative (see any number of DAO and smart-contract schemes that imploded), and there's a systemic allergy to input from the outside world as to what normal consumers want (things like reversability and systemic backstops), because the current system appeals to speculators. I'd see the case for "useful in the future" if there were more efforts to answer the no-breakthrough-tech-required "faster horses" problems people have with mainstream finance. FedNow is coming in months and will give me settlement in minutes for pennies, and likely very solid legal backing. This is faster horses. Crypto might offer similar settlement speeds, but I understand it depends on the particular chain I choose, and to an extent, how much I'm willing to pay to push the transaction through. I'd also wonder how reliably the courts will accept a crypto paper trail if there's ever a dispute on a payment. (Not necessarily because the trail is bogus, but simply because it's not a well-established precedent of who and what can be trusted)
- status200 4y ago
  Quick rant: it was so much fun playing with and testing the ETH ecosystem, it felt like we were really trying to reinvent how finance worked and outsourcing trust to static contracts. It felt like decentralized systems were at least plausible. Then Elon and the second Doge wave happened... Mutant Ape NFTs getting hyped by people like Paris Hilton and Jimmy Fallon... Sam Bankman's clear deception and FTX buying sports stadiums... the same centralized actors that we were working to get away from completely hijacked the platform, seized the narrative, and basically tarnished all the fun aspects. It felt like when Facebook no longer required .edu emails and a flood of parents and spammers took over the website.
AviationAtom 4y ago
Anyone that's bought in during the past few years isn't early. Those that held pre-2017 are the ones that got in early. The rest could probably make better returns speculating in the US markets.
- birracerveza 4y ago
  5 years ago, somewhere on the internet: >Anyone that's bought in during the past few years isn't early. >Those that held pre-2012 are the ones that got in early. >The rest could probably make better returns speculating in the US markets.
  - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
    Just like everything it depends on what you buy and when you buy and sell it. Post 2017 the largest theoretical gain from bitcoin so far was about 20x, if you bought at the post 2017 low in December of 2018 and sold at the 2021 high almost three years later. Gamestop stock almost matched that 20x for 2020-21 gains alone. Apple has been up well over 500x in the last 20 years. Ethereum was a better deal during this time, but you'd have to know to buy it. And some people really made bank on altcoins, but again, right time to buy, right time to sell. There's a limit on how much the crypto market can be worth with people still able to use it as a currency to buy things. Logarithmically we're closer to the top than to the original bottom, though like all markets timing can still yield very good returns, especially if everyone else is hodling like Fort Knox.
    - AviationAtom 4y ago
      That's the problem with many hyped assets: they're only profitable in the short term if you buy in before the pump, and sell before the dump. I still believe Ethereum is poised for a fair amount of growth in the long-term, though likely nothing near the rise it's enjoyed in it's last run. I say that only because it's an on-ramp to so many other cryptocurrencies.
      - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
miohtama 4y ago
Wouldn't this be the same question for all venture capital?
amjnsx 4y ago
“ or do they want them to be useful because they bought in early and want to get rich?” You could say that about any investment surely? Or do we assume all VC funded companies are altruistic endeavours only?

hfsygcf 4y ago

“user of cryptocurrencies”. It’s scammers, ramsomers, speculators and illicit drugs all the way down.

copymoro 4y ago
[flagged]
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  This is like the gingerbread man in the gingerbread house meme.
- ben_w 4y ago
  A Ponzi scheme pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors. The US economy has problems, but I don't see how that's supposed to be one of them. I don't think it's even (in 2023) a good model for BTC, although the adverts I saw for it when I first heard about it around the $250 price absolutely were that, and there are plenty of clone-coins that still do today.
  - jkepler 4y ago
    > A Ponzi scheme pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors. You just described how Social Security in the USA is funded. Its billed as government-run social insurance, but funded as a ponzi.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      1. "Profits" is a relevant keyword there. 2. If Social Security were to fail, the US government would be free to decide between canning it (or reducing it) or funding it from more taxes (or delaying retirement age, which is kinda both); in none of these cases is this itself going to threaten the USA economy or the USD currency.
      - deleted 4y ago

rektide 4y ago

Society is the unspecific. It's the masses. Who are this earthship. Non-society is everyone who sets themselves apart.

femiagbabiaka 4y ago

How does shifting from a physical currency based on the petrodollar to a digital currency backed by the petrodollar address any of this? Technology cannot solve problems of power…

landemva 4y ago
The story of 'dollar backed by petrol' is fiction. Petrodollar exists as much as a corndollar exists. The dollar is US Treasury debt.
- femiagbabiaka 4y ago
  If I follow your train of logic, why does Russia carry USD reserves?
  - landemva 4y ago
    Currencies are used to facilitate settlement of international trade. Trade in various goods and services. Central banks often carry reserves of various currencies to help with those international settlements and to manipulate currency values.
    - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
      I see now -- the specific label of petro is wrong, but the general idea that the hegemonic control of critical commodities -> currency control is not then? And saying petrodollar would be like saying porkyuen or semiconductoryuen or something similar
      - landemva 4y ago
        That label was descriptive for a time. The times have changed, and now it's might makes right.
- lowkey 4y ago
  When was the last time the US invaded a country in false pretenses for trading corn in another currency? The US claimed to invade Iraq because they were holding WMD. US led NATO forces claimed to liberate Libya because, checks notes, they were mistreating rebels in a “civil war” orchestrated by the CIA. Yet both Iraq and Libya had the nerve to try and trade their oil in currencies other than USD. Coincidence?

jonahrd 4y ago

It's a pretty big claim to say the ability to purchase cannabis online is due to crypto. The legalization movement started well before crypto, and the consumer laziness to anything except online shopping has also been around a long time. It's a pretty "natural" development. Also, it's not available everywhere.

Melingo 4y ago

[flagged]

0xDEF 4y ago

>Billions of people who are not part of these alliances are left out and the rest are reliant on US/Europe remaining leading superpowers forever, those in power not developing a grudge against one's business and status quo enforced through military violence. The claim that the only reason the US dollar is the reserve currency of the world is because the US military would invade anyone who uses something else is so often repeated on HN and reddit that is has become canon. It would be interesting to read something that goes deeper into that topic. In the mean time someone should tell European pension funds that they should not be betting what amounts to the combined GDP of several nations on just the S&P500.

qeternity 4y ago
> The claim that the only reason the US dollar is the reserve currency of the world is because the US military would invade anyone who uses something else is so often repeated on HN and reddit that is has become canon. No, it isn’t. Nobody said this, certainly not GP. What is canon is that US military might gives its economy a level of stability not enjoyed by any other country, and when combined with the size of the economy, makes the dollar an important asset for nearly everyone. Most countries in the world don’t use the dollar, and yet the dollar remains hugely important to those economies. Who is suggesting the US is going to invade those countries?
cat_plus_plus 4y ago
US military would move against agents who disturbs free trade between willing participants, in circumstances where US itself is not trying to restrict free trade with sanctions. More or less, also not saying it's always a negative, just that it doesn't cover everyone's needs and is not guaranteed to do so for eternity.