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For these I like to say "by the time I can give you an accurate estimate, I will be done with the work." Seriously though. It's always a time tradeoff. How muc

For these I like to say "by the time I can give you an accurate estimate, I will be done with the work." Seriously though. It's always a time tradeoff. How much time do you want an expensive developer investigating how long this problem will take. Will they learn something they can use during development. I always follow up my above quote with the unknowns and how hard I think they really are; what are the possible risks; _and_ I include the experience of the developers working on the problem; our ability to bring in other devs who understand this better etc etc. I like to make sure whoever is quoting this problem out understand everything as well as we can in the given amount of time.

mynameisvlad 4y ago
Is this not what estimating and refinement means to developers? I’m always pulling a number out of my ass, but that number is generally informed by current and past work, unknowns, and a “gut feel”. If that number is too high, then that’s a sign to management that the work needs to be changed. The only way to determine that is to estimate it then make that call.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  That's relevant for order of magnitude only, and only for "body sbop" work that is the same as previous work. And only works if management wants an estimate. More commonly, management wants a lie they can tell the client.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    > and only for "body sbop" work that is the same as previous work. That’s absolutely preposterous. As a senior engineer, I have seen enough that I have at least a high-level idea of what most of the dev tasks and stories I’m estimating are. I don’t always have the specific details that may change the estimate, but I also have a whole team of other people who have seen even more things and can inform that opinion. The point of refinement sessions is to share this information with everyone else so an estimate can be created and if needed, tasks can be better defined, split up or merged. > And only works if management wants an estimate. More commonly, management wants a lie they can tell the client. Wat? Estimates is used for plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with external clients. How do you think your manager, their manager, etc knows what is going on and approximately how long it’s going to take? They’re going to be far more disconnected from the work than the people doing it day to day, so they would generally have no clue how long something is estimated to take without someone telling them.
deleted 4y ago
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mynameisvlad 4y ago

Is this not what estimating and refinement means to developers? I’m always pulling a number out of my ass, but that number is generally informed by current and past work, unknowns, and a “gut feel”. If that number is too high, then that’s a sign to management that the work needs to be changed. The only way to determine that is to estimate it then make that call.

hgsgm 4y ago
That's relevant for order of magnitude only, and only for "body sbop" work that is the same as previous work. And only works if management wants an estimate. More commonly, management wants a lie they can tell the client.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  > and only for "body sbop" work that is the same as previous work. That’s absolutely preposterous. As a senior engineer, I have seen enough that I have at least a high-level idea of what most of the dev tasks and stories I’m estimating are. I don’t always have the specific details that may change the estimate, but I also have a whole team of other people who have seen even more things and can inform that opinion. The point of refinement sessions is to share this information with everyone else so an estimate can be created and if needed, tasks can be better defined, split up or merged. > And only works if management wants an estimate. More commonly, management wants a lie they can tell the client. Wat? Estimates is used for plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with external clients. How do you think your manager, their manager, etc knows what is going on and approximately how long it’s going to take? They’re going to be far more disconnected from the work than the people doing it day to day, so they would generally have no clue how long something is estimated to take without someone telling them.

deleted 4y ago

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