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I spent years in the crypto space and emerged more-or-less a crypto hater. I don't need to rehash that journey. I acknowledge the plight of people in situation

I spent years in the crypto space and emerged more-or-less a crypto hater. I don't need to rehash that journey. I acknowledge the plight of people in situations like Argentina, Venezuela, Lebanon, etc. I have many friends who fled such situations and Bitcoin/crypto absolutely would have been of benefit to them. However, when looking at the numbers helping people in these situations is easily still a net negative when zooming out and tallying what crypto has done to the population generally. For every person that was able to maintain some wealth in these situations there are 100 people who have gambled away everything they have and enabled an entire cast of charlatans, scammers, cybercriminals, and oppressive regimes like North Korea. I don't even want to think what the actual human impact is from suicides, ruined families, etc. I've provided data in multiple other comments and the fact is there has been tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars invested in crypto over more than a decade for a tiny number of people (one half of one percent of global internet users) to use this stuff for anything (mostly crime and speculation). Oh yeah, plus the ridiculous environmental and broader societal impact of the complete insanity that is proof of work resource utilization. Crypto is overwhelmingly evil and an absolute scourge.

anonym29 4y ago
Can we also acknowledge that US state governments are also deliberately, willfully, and maliciously harming those who gamble away everything they have on state lotteries, if "allowing people to voluntarily ruin their own lives gambling" is a sin? No disagreement on the charlatans, scammers, cybercrims, NK's of the world, etc, FWIW.
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  The old saying "money is the root of all evil" often does generally apply and lotteries are an excellent example of state-sponsored financial ruin. I especially like the John Oliver pieces[0][1] on that one. I see it everyday - video poker "cafes" and here in Wisconsin the cultural acceptance and actual embrace of weird things like "pull tabs" and "dice games". Las Vegas is an entire city that has been built on financial ruin. But we can simultaneously criticize, express concern, and work towards fixing multiple issues at the same time. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PK-netuhHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PK-netuhHA [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKMNKS-9ugY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKMNKS-9ugY
  - anonym29 4y ago
    The old saying is not that "money is the root of all evil", but that "the love of money is the root of all evil". I personally take a very different view, which is that voluntary transactions are inherently ethical. The questions of ethics rests not in the outcomes for me, but in the question of whether any force was initiated. I can voluntarily donate so much money to charity that I make myself insolvent - if that's my choice, it's fine. Conversely, if a mugger puts a gun to my head and demands I give all of my money to charity, that is not fine, the mugger is infringing upon my life, liberty, and property. Outcomes are the exact same - one situation is ethical and voluntary, the other is unethical because it is involuntary. Swindlers and charlatans are kinda a grey area, since that reaches into the realm of transactions that appear voluntary but are rooted in false premises or concealed information, and might therefore be considered unethical if not outright theft. At the same time, if the state is responsible for providing individuals with mathematical literacy and it fails so horribly at that such that individuals voluntarily play games with a mathmatical expexted value (EV) of <$1 for every $1 they put in, which they do with the sole hope of reaping an EV of >$1, the same argument can be made about the state, who, worse than the charlatans and scammers, had the responsibility of educating their own victim well enough for the victim to not fall for such schemes. That abdication of the responsibility paired with the exploitation of those same individuals the state has failed to responsibly educate makes the state activity feel much more reprehensible, in my opinion. My subjective views aside, your point about being willing and able to tackle two problems at once is a perfectly valid one, and I concede even that it can be more efficient to target the lesser of two evils if the rate of evil reduction is greater due to the smaller evil being a quicker/easier fix.
    - kkielhofner 4y ago
      Thanks for the correction on the expression (I always forget the "love" part)! As for the rest... Pretty sure I'm following but it's a bit more philosophical than what I'm capable of. With that said, if you follow the crypto space it's a symptom rather than problem. Just like the lottery many people will outright (essentially) say "crypto is my only chance to get out of my disadvantaged economic position". It's really quite sad and as much as I bash crypto I have a tremendous amount of empathy for people who feel trapped in their economic situation and desperately play crypto/lottery. I cringe when I see people in the crypto hate/skeptic community cheer when average crypto "users" end up in financial ruin. It's disgusting. I've told multiple people in the space something to the effect of "If you spent as much time, energy, and resources as you do pumping crypto bullshit on education - learning to code, trades, professional certifications, etc you'd be much better off". Hell - many of the shills pumping crypto could walk into any organization and get a great sales/marketing position. Crypto is truly "MLM for men" and the stats back that up. The statistics are horrendous and people desperately hoping for another "moon coin" to get that lambo (or whatever) is remarkably similar to playing the lottery or thinking your six year child getting to the NBA/NFL/etc is your ticket out.

anonym29 4y ago

Can we also acknowledge that US state governments are also deliberately, willfully, and maliciously harming those who gamble away everything they have on state lotteries, if "allowing people to voluntarily ruin their own lives gambling" is a sin? No disagreement on the charlatans, scammers, cybercrims, NK's of the world, etc, FWIW.

kkielhofner 4y ago
The old saying "money is the root of all evil" often does generally apply and lotteries are an excellent example of state-sponsored financial ruin. I especially like the John Oliver pieces[0][1] on that one. I see it everyday - video poker "cafes" and here in Wisconsin the cultural acceptance and actual embrace of weird things like "pull tabs" and "dice games". Las Vegas is an entire city that has been built on financial ruin. But we can simultaneously criticize, express concern, and work towards fixing multiple issues at the same time. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PK-netuhHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PK-netuhHA [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKMNKS-9ugY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKMNKS-9ugY
- anonym29 4y ago
  The old saying is not that "money is the root of all evil", but that "the love of money is the root of all evil". I personally take a very different view, which is that voluntary transactions are inherently ethical. The questions of ethics rests not in the outcomes for me, but in the question of whether any force was initiated. I can voluntarily donate so much money to charity that I make myself insolvent - if that's my choice, it's fine. Conversely, if a mugger puts a gun to my head and demands I give all of my money to charity, that is not fine, the mugger is infringing upon my life, liberty, and property. Outcomes are the exact same - one situation is ethical and voluntary, the other is unethical because it is involuntary. Swindlers and charlatans are kinda a grey area, since that reaches into the realm of transactions that appear voluntary but are rooted in false premises or concealed information, and might therefore be considered unethical if not outright theft. At the same time, if the state is responsible for providing individuals with mathematical literacy and it fails so horribly at that such that individuals voluntarily play games with a mathmatical expexted value (EV) of <$1 for every $1 they put in, which they do with the sole hope of reaping an EV of >$1, the same argument can be made about the state, who, worse than the charlatans and scammers, had the responsibility of educating their own victim well enough for the victim to not fall for such schemes. That abdication of the responsibility paired with the exploitation of those same individuals the state has failed to responsibly educate makes the state activity feel much more reprehensible, in my opinion. My subjective views aside, your point about being willing and able to tackle two problems at once is a perfectly valid one, and I concede even that it can be more efficient to target the lesser of two evils if the rate of evil reduction is greater due to the smaller evil being a quicker/easier fix.
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    Thanks for the correction on the expression (I always forget the "love" part)! As for the rest... Pretty sure I'm following but it's a bit more philosophical than what I'm capable of. With that said, if you follow the crypto space it's a symptom rather than problem. Just like the lottery many people will outright (essentially) say "crypto is my only chance to get out of my disadvantaged economic position". It's really quite sad and as much as I bash crypto I have a tremendous amount of empathy for people who feel trapped in their economic situation and desperately play crypto/lottery. I cringe when I see people in the crypto hate/skeptic community cheer when average crypto "users" end up in financial ruin. It's disgusting. I've told multiple people in the space something to the effect of "If you spent as much time, energy, and resources as you do pumping crypto bullshit on education - learning to code, trades, professional certifications, etc you'd be much better off". Hell - many of the shills pumping crypto could walk into any organization and get a great sales/marketing position. Crypto is truly "MLM for men" and the stats back that up. The statistics are horrendous and people desperately hoping for another "moon coin" to get that lambo (or whatever) is remarkably similar to playing the lottery or thinking your six year child getting to the NBA/NFL/etc is your ticket out.