4 ms·

Partially changed its mind. E-fuels (which is what Germany supports) are vastly inferior to e.g. EVs: >While e-fuels might help prolong the life of the combust

by outime 4y ago

Partially changed its mind. E-fuels (which is what Germany supports) are vastly inferior to e.g. EVs: >While e-fuels might help prolong the life of the combustion engine in a zero carbon world, they remain relatively inefficient compared to battery technology — and are also significantly more expensive [...] Vehicles run on e-fuels consume five times more energy than a battery-powered EV, and will be around eight times more expensive to run per kilometer in the future, according to a study commissioned by the German Energy Agency.

credit_guy 4y ago
So what if they are vastly inferior? As long as they don't contribute to greenhouse gas emission, let the people decide. If some people want to part with their hard earned cash, why do you care? If anything, this will make rich people a little bit less rich.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Timon3 4y ago
  The R&D investments mean that: - the type of vehicle available to most of the population will be inferior compared to a universe without this investment - companies have reasons to also use their fossil fuel investments longer - companies have more reasons to lobby for weakening the requirements for E-fuels It's not like this is happening in a vacuum - laws and investments have a big influence on which direction we go in. So far the capital class has managed to skirt many regulations regarding emissions (e.g. by "offsetting" emissions, or by lying about them). A lot of real harm has already been done, and this is an avenue that will inevitably continue this.
matthewdgreen 4y ago
All of this may be true, but it will give (some) German car companies an excuse to keep their obsolete ICE production lines around a little longer than they would otherwise. And that will in turn slow down EV development and all the other natural tipping points that would wipe out the economic benefits of ICE cars in the first place. In the end German industry will pay for it. Companies like BMW slow-rolled their EV rollouts back in the second half of the 2010s and as of 2022 they were being substantially outsold by Tesla in the US (not just in terms of their anemic EV sales, but across all types of vehicle) and European sales are getting eaten away as well. This is before Chinese EV competitors catch up and really start to compete. If you’re a European manufacturer and you’re not pouring all your resources into EV production then you’re already dead. This is a place where Europe really needs to step in and save their manufacturers from themselves.
photochemsyn 4y ago
As usual, those energy calculations are highly biased, and the way you can tell is that they don't have any error bars on those energy/expense ratios. They also don't include the costs relative to fossil fuel import and refining costs, another indication that it's not an honest analysis. E.g. long-distance transport in rural areas is probably going to be at least as cheap with hydrocarbon fuels as with EVs, while the opposite will be true in cities with robust electricity supplies, and so on. Additionally, synthetic fuel allows balancing of production and demand of electricity, a major issue when you're relying primarily on sunlight and wind, i.e. exceess PV in the summer months can be converted to hydrocarbon fuels for use in the winter months. See also: "Synthetic fuels in the German industry sector depending on climate protection level (2021)" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666955221000423 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266695522... Of course, if Germany builds such a project out at scale, it'll greatly reduce demand for both Russian Siberian pipeline gas and fracked US LNG tanker gas, which probably accounts for CNN's negative view and biased presentation, as their top shareholders have major holdings in Exxon, Chevron and so on. I doubt Putin is thrilled about the idea, either.
patall 4y ago
I personally believe that they only tell you that this about E-fuels, even though everyone knows that those will be too expensive. What they are really looking for are ethanol or vegetable oil derived fuels that are likely much cheaper, especially once the capacity of 5-10% in todays E10 gasoline is freed due to drop in demand. They cannot tell you that because food prizes are high right now. But I would not be surprised at all if in 2035 there was a biodiesel version of Porsche's 911.

by outime 4y ago

credit_guy 4y ago

So what if they are vastly inferior? As long as they don't contribute to greenhouse gas emission, let the people decide. If some people want to part with their hard earned cash, why do you care? If anything, this will make rich people a little bit less rich.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Timon3 4y ago
The R&D investments mean that: - the type of vehicle available to most of the population will be inferior compared to a universe without this investment - companies have reasons to also use their fossil fuel investments longer - companies have more reasons to lobby for weakening the requirements for E-fuels It's not like this is happening in a vacuum - laws and investments have a big influence on which direction we go in. So far the capital class has managed to skirt many regulations regarding emissions (e.g. by "offsetting" emissions, or by lying about them). A lot of real harm has already been done, and this is an avenue that will inevitably continue this.

matthewdgreen 4y ago

All of this may be true, but it will give (some) German car companies an excuse to keep their obsolete ICE production lines around a little longer than they would otherwise. And that will in turn slow down EV development and all the other natural tipping points that would wipe out the economic benefits of ICE cars in the first place. In the end German industry will pay for it. Companies like BMW slow-rolled their EV rollouts back in the second half of the 2010s and as of 2022 they were being substantially outsold by Tesla in the US (not just in terms of their anemic EV sales, but across all types of vehicle) and European sales are getting eaten away as well. This is before Chinese EV competitors catch up and really start to compete. If you’re a European manufacturer and you’re not pouring all your resources into EV production then you’re already dead. This is a place where Europe really needs to step in and save their manufacturers from themselves.

photochemsyn 4y ago

As usual, those energy calculations are highly biased, and the way you can tell is that they don't have any error bars on those energy/expense ratios. They also don't include the costs relative to fossil fuel import and refining costs, another indication that it's not an honest analysis. E.g. long-distance transport in rural areas is probably going to be at least as cheap with hydrocarbon fuels as with EVs, while the opposite will be true in cities with robust electricity supplies, and so on. Additionally, synthetic fuel allows balancing of production and demand of electricity, a major issue when you're relying primarily on sunlight and wind, i.e. exceess PV in the summer months can be converted to hydrocarbon fuels for use in the winter months. See also: "Synthetic fuels in the German industry sector depending on climate protection level (2021)" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666955221000423 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266695522... Of course, if Germany builds such a project out at scale, it'll greatly reduce demand for both Russian Siberian pipeline gas and fracked US LNG tanker gas, which probably accounts for CNN's negative view and biased presentation, as their top shareholders have major holdings in Exxon, Chevron and so on. I doubt Putin is thrilled about the idea, either.

patall 4y ago

I personally believe that they only tell you that this about E-fuels, even though everyone knows that those will be too expensive. What they are really looking for are ethanol or vegetable oil derived fuels that are likely much cheaper, especially once the capacity of 5-10% in todays E10 gasoline is freed due to drop in demand. They cannot tell you that because food prizes are high right now. But I would not be surprised at all if in 2035 there was a biodiesel version of Porsche's 911.