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I'd like to add that this may have outsized unintended effects like COPPA did - COPPA being the law that established that accounts online required you to be 13.

by Mezzie 4y ago

I'd like to add that this may have outsized unintended effects like COPPA did - COPPA being the law that established that accounts online required you to be 13. I was 12 when COPPA went into effect. What a lot of people don't know about COPPA is that there is a provision to allow for children under 13 to have accounts with proven parental permission. My parents would have allowed me - I'd been online for 8 years at that point and they were both techy types who could supervise me. However, it wasn't worth the extra logistics for companies, so they just outright banned anyone under 13. Likewise, if this is enacted in enough states or the logistics of figuring out which people to track becomes too burdensome, I'd expect to see sites not letting anyone under 18 use them and to start collecting everyone's information. Which would have some really bad second-order impacts. In addition to the impacts others have mentioned on minority populations, I have two main concerns: - Cutting off the parental rights of those who want to be permissive with their kids. My parents didn't believe in content restrictions; the one ideological idea they agree on is free access to knowledge. I was given an adult library card at 5-6 and full Internet access at around the same age and discussions on how to interpret what we saw in the news/in media/etc. was a common discussion point. My mother is from a media studies family and my father's family are tech tinkerers. Families like mine will be functionally unable to raise their children as they would prefer. - More relevant to society as a whole, sure, let's ban their access until they're 18. Then when kids move out/leave at 18, not only do they have to navigate the world, they have to be introduced to social media with absolutely no oversight. And 18 year olds are legally "adults", so companies will have a group of completely defenseless people to take advantage of who can be held to their bad decisions. (Think like credit card companies who hang out at freshmen college/uni events). It's similar to raising the driving age: While raising the driving age does prevent accidents, the highest rate of bad driving comes from new drivers. If the driving age is lower, those new drivers are more likely to have people to call if they do get into trouble and make their mistakes when they're less likely to ruin their lives. Likewise, the worst effects of social media will be felt by those who are new users.

BeFlatXIII 4y ago
How likely is it that today's teens simply check the "I am over 18" box and set themselves a fake birthday that is Jan 1 from 20 years ago? I've been 25 for the past 25 years, after all.
- Mezzie 4y ago
  The problem is that you can't easily verify whether someone is 12 or 14 with documentation so the checkbox is all they had. You can easily verify if someone is over 18 and there are systems in place to do so, which means it's highly likely if this takes place that ID is going to be required. (I mean I also just lied after COPPA, but I was pissed to lose so many accounts that I'd signed up for honestly in 95-99.) Are the kids going to get around it? Yes. (And good, that's one way to develop a healthy skepticism as well as some systems thinking.) But it's going to be way harder and likely involve forging documents or impersonating particular adults. (I can see a reverse of a situation I had growing up where my parents used us as shields against piracy accusations: "Ooops, sorry, I'll talk to my kid. They're totally the one who downloaded this game." nudge nudge wink wink where children act through their parents - it's not like it's hard for a 15 year old to take their mom/dad's driver's license and use it). Those actions are more likely to be punished, whereas a simple lie is 'kids will be kids'.
  - BeFlatXIII 4y ago
    Perhaps the kids will start forging ID cards as foreign nationals with completely fictitious ID templates (or just say "not from Utah").
noirscape 4y ago
The main thing COPPA failed at was that iirc the parent who wanted to allow their child on the platform would have to physically email their approval to the operator of the site in question. Nobody wanted to make their address accessible/wanted to pass the hordes of physical mail that would end up at that address (see the inherent issues with any public email address and spam), so this quickly fell to the wayside in favor of the pinky promise you're above 13 checkbox. For what it counts, outside the US, minimum age for this sorta thing (although there it's more about general data processing, not some weird "think of the children" nonsense) is often higher. Here for example you're not allowed to have a Google account if you're >=16 years old, end of story. Still skippable with a checkbox (and from what I know any teenager just does that), but the age being at 13 is not at all a standard.
sprite 4y ago
I don’t understand how social media companies will enforce this without requiring an ID for any signup. Even then users could just select another country. Without enforcement this is just as useless as click link to verify you are 18 or enter birthdate.

by Mezzie 4y ago

BeFlatXIII 4y ago

How likely is it that today's teens simply check the "I am over 18" box and set themselves a fake birthday that is Jan 1 from 20 years ago? I've been 25 for the past 25 years, after all.

Mezzie 4y ago
The problem is that you can't easily verify whether someone is 12 or 14 with documentation so the checkbox is all they had. You can easily verify if someone is over 18 and there are systems in place to do so, which means it's highly likely if this takes place that ID is going to be required. (I mean I also just lied after COPPA, but I was pissed to lose so many accounts that I'd signed up for honestly in 95-99.) Are the kids going to get around it? Yes. (And good, that's one way to develop a healthy skepticism as well as some systems thinking.) But it's going to be way harder and likely involve forging documents or impersonating particular adults. (I can see a reverse of a situation I had growing up where my parents used us as shields against piracy accusations: "Ooops, sorry, I'll talk to my kid. They're totally the one who downloaded this game." nudge nudge wink wink where children act through their parents - it's not like it's hard for a 15 year old to take their mom/dad's driver's license and use it). Those actions are more likely to be punished, whereas a simple lie is 'kids will be kids'.
- BeFlatXIII 4y ago
  Perhaps the kids will start forging ID cards as foreign nationals with completely fictitious ID templates (or just say "not from Utah").

noirscape 4y ago

The main thing COPPA failed at was that iirc the parent who wanted to allow their child on the platform would have to physically email their approval to the operator of the site in question. Nobody wanted to make their address accessible/wanted to pass the hordes of physical mail that would end up at that address (see the inherent issues with any public email address and spam), so this quickly fell to the wayside in favor of the pinky promise you're above 13 checkbox. For what it counts, outside the US, minimum age for this sorta thing (although there it's more about general data processing, not some weird "think of the children" nonsense) is often higher. Here for example you're not allowed to have a Google account if you're >=16 years old, end of story. Still skippable with a checkbox (and from what I know any teenager just does that), but the age being at 13 is not at all a standard.

sprite 4y ago

I don’t understand how social media companies will enforce this without requiring an ID for any signup. Even then users could just select another country. Without enforcement this is just as useless as click link to verify you are 18 or enter birthdate.