4 ms·

All signs point to the downing of MH17 as an accident. That's not solid foundation for casus belli.

by dannyw 4y ago

newjersey 4y ago
I would have agreed with you had Russia accepted that it made a mistake. In the absence of something small as an acknowledgment and a formal apology (followed up by large monetary compensations for the victims’ families), it isn’t obvious to me how anytime can assume it was an accident. The apology should have come immediately after the incident, without anyone asking for it. It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters. - Epictetus
- throwaway744678 4y ago
  It is very well possible that it happened through discrete diplomatic channels (and then someone forgot to post it on HN)
- haconBagrid 4y ago
  And it should not be forgotten that Russia tried to blame Ukraine with stupid fakes. https://euvsdisinfo.eu/mh17-seven-years-of-lying-and-denying/ https://euvsdisinfo.eu/mh17-seven-years-of-lying-and-denying... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/15/ukraine-fighter-shot-mh17-claims-russian-tv-photo-fake https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/15/ukraine-fighte...
wewxjfq 4y ago
They shot the plane down on purpose, they took smiling pictures amongst the wreckage, and they prevented the Dutch or anyone else from picking up the bodies.
- Hnrobert42 4y ago
  How do you know they did it on purpose? Taking smiling pictures with wreckage after the fact is horrific but not evidence of intent.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - kamranjon 4y ago
    I just heard this story on NPR a couple weeks ago, it seems that there is unfortunately no conclusive evidence and likely will never be, but they do have strong evidence (intercepted audio recordings) suggesting that Putin was directly involved in supplying the BUK missile system to the separatists that shot down the plane. https://www.npr.org/2023/02/08/1155401602/malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-putin-missiles-investigation https://www.npr.org/2023/02/08/1155401602/malaysian-airlines...
- orthoxerox 4y ago
  They shot a plane down on purpose, not the plane. Then they went full CYA mode, as at that time Russian involvement in the conflict was all about barely plausible deniability. Coming out and saying, "yes, we have sent a Russian SAM into Ukraine to shoot down Ukrainian airplanes and accidentally shot down a civilian airliner" was technically an option, but Russia preferred to deny everything and flood the infospace with a hundred conflicting theories.

All signs point to the downing of MH17 as an accident. That's not solid foundation for casus belli.

by dannyw 4y ago

All signs point to the downing of MH17 as an accident. That's not solid foundation for casus belli.

I would have agreed with you had Russia accepted that it made a mistake. In the absence of something small as an acknowledgment and a formal apology (followed up by large monetary compensations for the victims’ families), it isn’t obvious to me how anytime can assume it was an accident. The apology should have come immediately after the incident, without anyone asking for it. It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters. - Epictetus

throwaway744678 4y ago
It is very well possible that it happened through discrete diplomatic channels (and then someone forgot to post it on HN)
haconBagrid 4y ago
And it should not be forgotten that Russia tried to blame Ukraine with stupid fakes. https://euvsdisinfo.eu/mh17-seven-years-of-lying-and-denying/ https://euvsdisinfo.eu/mh17-seven-years-of-lying-and-denying... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/15/ukraine-fighter-shot-mh17-claims-russian-tv-photo-fake https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/15/ukraine-fighte...

wewxjfq 4y ago

They shot the plane down on purpose, they took smiling pictures amongst the wreckage, and they prevented the Dutch or anyone else from picking up the bodies.

Hnrobert42 4y ago
How do you know they did it on purpose? Taking smiling pictures with wreckage after the fact is horrific but not evidence of intent.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kamranjon 4y ago
  I just heard this story on NPR a couple weeks ago, it seems that there is unfortunately no conclusive evidence and likely will never be, but they do have strong evidence (intercepted audio recordings) suggesting that Putin was directly involved in supplying the BUK missile system to the separatists that shot down the plane. https://www.npr.org/2023/02/08/1155401602/malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-putin-missiles-investigation https://www.npr.org/2023/02/08/1155401602/malaysian-airlines...
orthoxerox 4y ago
They shot a plane down on purpose, not the plane. Then they went full CYA mode, as at that time Russian involvement in the conflict was all about barely plausible deniability. Coming out and saying, "yes, we have sent a Russian SAM into Ukraine to shoot down Ukrainian airplanes and accidentally shot down a civilian airliner" was technically an option, but Russia preferred to deny everything and flood the infospace with a hundred conflicting theories.