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I don’t think “independent states” applies here, especially right after USSR dissolution. There was a lot of corruption, a lot of capital “redistribution” and o

by bilqis 4y ago

I don’t think “independent states” applies here, especially right after USSR dissolution. There was a lot of corruption, a lot of capital “redistribution” and outside meddling. They got some feeling of security, but also became a tool of US imperialism and a frontline that supposed to take the first hit/make a first strike. I would prefer to be in a neutral position.

Tade0 4y ago
> I would prefer to be in a neutral position. As a citizen of such a country I disagree. After over a generation the effects speak for themselves - those who aligned with the west are now democracies(even if at times lead by populists) with healthy economies which were invested into. Meanwhile those who either aligned with Russia or remained under its influence have very little of the liberty my generation already got used to, rampant corruption and stagnant economies. Personally I prefer the former, as many citizens of the latter really, but they don't have a say in that due to their circumstances. As for safety: Ukraine was supposed to remain neutral in exchange for the nuclear stockpile on its territory, but all it got is an unprovoked invasion from Russia, which doesn't respect such agreements and it's enough to neighbor this country to understand this.
koonsolo 4y ago
> US imperialism Is US handing out passports here in Europe? Are they deporting kids to US, invading countries to make it their own territory? Poisoning politicians that alignn with Russia? Sorry but I haven't seen that. However, we've seen plenty of that coming from Russia. And you wonder why countries like to join NATO (under agreement, begging them to accept), and not Russia (under force). Strange right?
- bilqis 4y ago
  USA operates differently, securing profits and influence via different means.
  - koonsolo 4y ago
    You mean by forging win-win relationships with other countries instead of master-slave relationships? Maybe one form is better than the other, or do you consider those equal? I'm not from US by the way, I'm Belgian. You know, home of EU and NATO. Both were formed on collaboration agreements, not enforcement.
    - bilqis 4y ago
      I think it varies case by case. Sorry, I don’t believe in a equal and just relationship between the biggest economy in the world and economies that are few order of magnitude smaller. As well as I don’t believe in a relationship between 40 years old man and 17 years old girl. But let’s imagine that this is a win-win relationship, say between Estonia and NATO. I understand that Estonia is getting from them, but what USA is getting?
      - koonsolo 4y ago
        You claim that the economy of EU+UK is "a few order of magnitude smaller" than US? USA is getting a strong partnership next to one of its worst enemies. Let me pose this question: If US would drop out of NATO, would that mean all NATO countries would drop out, or would the rest of NATO still form an alliance?
      - sorenjan 4y ago
        What did USA gain from joining the allies in Europe during WW1 and WW2? Besides the moral and humanitarian reasons, which I actually believe played a big role even though I'm not American and I know it's easy to be cynical online and disregard those, they also gained a larger market for their products. US hegemony has benefitted the US for decades. Same thing applies now, the more countries that are friendly and politically aligned the better. And NATO isn't just the US, the Baltic airspace is currently being protected by Portugal and Romania.
      - mongol 4y ago
        > As well as I don’t believe in a relationship between 40 years old man and 17 years old girl. Ridiculous comparison

by bilqis 4y ago

Tade0 4y ago

> I would prefer to be in a neutral position. As a citizen of such a country I disagree. After over a generation the effects speak for themselves - those who aligned with the west are now democracies(even if at times lead by populists) with healthy economies which were invested into. Meanwhile those who either aligned with Russia or remained under its influence have very little of the liberty my generation already got used to, rampant corruption and stagnant economies. Personally I prefer the former, as many citizens of the latter really, but they don't have a say in that due to their circumstances. As for safety: Ukraine was supposed to remain neutral in exchange for the nuclear stockpile on its territory, but all it got is an unprovoked invasion from Russia, which doesn't respect such agreements and it's enough to neighbor this country to understand this.

koonsolo 4y ago

> US imperialism Is US handing out passports here in Europe? Are they deporting kids to US, invading countries to make it their own territory? Poisoning politicians that alignn with Russia? Sorry but I haven't seen that. However, we've seen plenty of that coming from Russia. And you wonder why countries like to join NATO (under agreement, begging them to accept), and not Russia (under force). Strange right?

bilqis 4y ago
USA operates differently, securing profits and influence via different means.
- koonsolo 4y ago
  You mean by forging win-win relationships with other countries instead of master-slave relationships? Maybe one form is better than the other, or do you consider those equal? I'm not from US by the way, I'm Belgian. You know, home of EU and NATO. Both were formed on collaboration agreements, not enforcement.
  - bilqis 4y ago
    I think it varies case by case. Sorry, I don’t believe in a equal and just relationship between the biggest economy in the world and economies that are few order of magnitude smaller. As well as I don’t believe in a relationship between 40 years old man and 17 years old girl. But let’s imagine that this is a win-win relationship, say between Estonia and NATO. I understand that Estonia is getting from them, but what USA is getting?
    - koonsolo 4y ago
      You claim that the economy of EU+UK is "a few order of magnitude smaller" than US? USA is getting a strong partnership next to one of its worst enemies. Let me pose this question: If US would drop out of NATO, would that mean all NATO countries would drop out, or would the rest of NATO still form an alliance?
    - sorenjan 4y ago
      What did USA gain from joining the allies in Europe during WW1 and WW2? Besides the moral and humanitarian reasons, which I actually believe played a big role even though I'm not American and I know it's easy to be cynical online and disregard those, they also gained a larger market for their products. US hegemony has benefitted the US for decades. Same thing applies now, the more countries that are friendly and politically aligned the better. And NATO isn't just the US, the Baltic airspace is currently being protected by Portugal and Romania.
    - mongol 4y ago
      > As well as I don’t believe in a relationship between 40 years old man and 17 years old girl. Ridiculous comparison