4 ms·

>That it is Ukraine bombing their own cities They do bomb them. Or do you think it's the Russian or rebel forces bombed Luhansk and Donetsk since 2014, and the

by fuoqi 4y ago

>That it is Ukraine bombing their own cities They do bomb them. Or do you think it's the Russian or rebel forces bombed Luhansk and Donetsk since 2014, and the Zaporizhia nuclear plant since the war started? There is a ton of blatant lies being told by the pro-Ukranian side before and after the start of the war. For example, the infamous "air conditioner explosion" was later confirmed to be a targeted strike of the Luhansk state administration building by the Ukrainian government. Of course, it goes in both directions.

concordDance 4y ago
And note that just because there are pro Ukrainian lies does not mean the Ukrainian and Russian governments and media mouthpieces lie the same amount! I personally do not have the data to make an informed assessment, but I would be unsurprised if the Ukrainian side lies less than half as much as the Russian one.
- 0xy 4y ago
  They lied about bombing civilians in Poland, and continue to deny they are responsible in 2023. Of course, this was after they blamed Russia.
  - armada651 4y ago
    You mean the anti-air rockets that landed in Poland after they were fired to protect civilians against Russian missile strikes? That "bombing" of Poland?
    - thdespou 4y ago
      It's funny how twisted is the whole narrative just to justify their actions. Pathetic.
    - pydry 4y ago
      Yes, that missile. Zelensky contradicted western reports that it was Ukrainian AA and stated repeatedly that it was a Russian missile attack on NATO territory.
      - armada651 4y ago
        So we are in agreement then that western reporting is generally accurate and the missile attacks on civilians across Ukraine are acts by Russia and not false flags ordered by Zelensky?
        pydry 4y ago
        I'm not in agreement that western reporting is generally accurate, no. They refused to even call that lie a lie even as they printed both facts side by side. It was bizarre. The West definitely lies less than Ukraine though.
        armada651 4y ago
        So is there any source of news you do trust?
    - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
      Russian missiles that came from Poland, and Ukraine had to shoot in direction of Poland? If that’s the official Ukrainian version they are up to something really big.
  - msm_ 4y ago
    That's just politics and an open secret anyway. Ukraine doesn't want to officially say "Yes, our anti-air rocket missed and accidentaly landed in Poland", and Polish politicians (and people) are happy to officially pretend to believe and forget this story. Because it was an accident, and the only reason the rocket was in the air is Russia anyway. Maybe in the ideal world we should always be open about everything, but unfortunately media, propaganda trolls and the people like you come and twist a single incident into some "both sides are equally bad" bullshit.
    - 0xy 4y ago
      "Accidentally landed in their territory" pretty notably omits the civilians slain, though. Should someone be forgiven for an accident if they deny it was even them, months later? Ukraine denies this incident to this day, and has never apologized or made it right to the civilians they killed. They repeatedly false flagged the incident, however.
armada651 4y ago
That's a disingenuous argument, you know perfectly well that they weren't referring to cities on the frontline under Russian control. Rather they were referring to cities like Kyiv or Lviv who also get bombed despite not being anywhere near the frontlines.
akvadrako 4y ago
Of course Ukraine is mostly using artillery against it's own cities occupied by Russia, as it's fighting on home territory. I assume the top poster meant the cruise missile bombing campaigns against western cities like Lyiv, Kyiv, Kharkiv, etc.
ohgodplsno 4y ago
> For example, the infamous "air conditioner explosion" was later confirmed to be a targeted strike of the Luhansk state administration building by the Ukrainian government. "Confirmed" by Radio Free Europe, a notable russian propaganda outlet. The only sources they're basing it on are the OSCE saying it's probably rockets, the fucking Daily Beast and CNN saying that the explosion patterns looked like it came from airbust weapons, that could have been fired by an Su25/Su27. Yes, the ukrainian forces have those. You know who else does ? The russian troops explicitly supporting the DPR and LNR with logistics and hardware. The reality of things is, we have no idea who did it, whether it was a false flag, a mistake, an actual ukrainian attack, or anything else. >do you think it's the Russian or rebel forces bombed Luhansk and Donetsk since 2014 Luhansk and Donetsk were being invaded by a foreign country. Why should Ukraine not be able to respond to an invasion, or to terrorists being funded by said foreign country ?
practice9 4y ago
> Russian or rebel forces bombed Luhansk and Donetsk since 2014, and the Zaporizhia nuclear plant since the war started The important distinction to be made, there were no rebel forces, but the separatist forces. You are giving too much grandeur to the group that is used to torturing people [1]. The takeover was controlled by Russian officers as well [2] Also the unofficial existence of anti-retreat forces in Russian forces devalues your argument. If they shoot the deserters, do they really care about the civilians? Especially considering that their propaganda will tell it's "bad" Ukrainians anyway. It defies logic and that's exactly how Russia loves to operate (see: Putin's speeches) This meme just won't go away, because most people don't believe how barbarous and cruel Russians can be. [3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izolyatsia_prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izolyatsia_prison [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_torture_chambers_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_torture_chambers_in_Uk...

by fuoqi 4y ago

concordDance 4y ago

And note that just because there are pro Ukrainian lies does not mean the Ukrainian and Russian governments and media mouthpieces lie the same amount! I personally do not have the data to make an informed assessment, but I would be unsurprised if the Ukrainian side lies less than half as much as the Russian one.

0xy 4y ago
They lied about bombing civilians in Poland, and continue to deny they are responsible in 2023. Of course, this was after they blamed Russia.
- armada651 4y ago
  You mean the anti-air rockets that landed in Poland after they were fired to protect civilians against Russian missile strikes? That "bombing" of Poland?
  - thdespou 4y ago
    It's funny how twisted is the whole narrative just to justify their actions. Pathetic.
  - pydry 4y ago
    Yes, that missile. Zelensky contradicted western reports that it was Ukrainian AA and stated repeatedly that it was a Russian missile attack on NATO territory.
    - armada651 4y ago
      So we are in agreement then that western reporting is generally accurate and the missile attacks on civilians across Ukraine are acts by Russia and not false flags ordered by Zelensky?
      - pydry 4y ago
        I'm not in agreement that western reporting is generally accurate, no. They refused to even call that lie a lie even as they printed both facts side by side. It was bizarre. The West definitely lies less than Ukraine though.
        armada651 4y ago
        So is there any source of news you do trust?
  - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
    Russian missiles that came from Poland, and Ukraine had to shoot in direction of Poland? If that’s the official Ukrainian version they are up to something really big.
- msm_ 4y ago
  That's just politics and an open secret anyway. Ukraine doesn't want to officially say "Yes, our anti-air rocket missed and accidentaly landed in Poland", and Polish politicians (and people) are happy to officially pretend to believe and forget this story. Because it was an accident, and the only reason the rocket was in the air is Russia anyway. Maybe in the ideal world we should always be open about everything, but unfortunately media, propaganda trolls and the people like you come and twist a single incident into some "both sides are equally bad" bullshit.
  - 0xy 4y ago
    "Accidentally landed in their territory" pretty notably omits the civilians slain, though. Should someone be forgiven for an accident if they deny it was even them, months later? Ukraine denies this incident to this day, and has never apologized or made it right to the civilians they killed. They repeatedly false flagged the incident, however.

armada651 4y ago

That's a disingenuous argument, you know perfectly well that they weren't referring to cities on the frontline under Russian control. Rather they were referring to cities like Kyiv or Lviv who also get bombed despite not being anywhere near the frontlines.

akvadrako 4y ago

Of course Ukraine is mostly using artillery against it's own cities occupied by Russia, as it's fighting on home territory. I assume the top poster meant the cruise missile bombing campaigns against western cities like Lyiv, Kyiv, Kharkiv, etc.

ohgodplsno 4y ago

> For example, the infamous "air conditioner explosion" was later confirmed to be a targeted strike of the Luhansk state administration building by the Ukrainian government. "Confirmed" by Radio Free Europe, a notable russian propaganda outlet. The only sources they're basing it on are the OSCE saying it's probably rockets, the fucking Daily Beast and CNN saying that the explosion patterns looked like it came from airbust weapons, that could have been fired by an Su25/Su27. Yes, the ukrainian forces have those. You know who else does ? The russian troops explicitly supporting the DPR and LNR with logistics and hardware. The reality of things is, we have no idea who did it, whether it was a false flag, a mistake, an actual ukrainian attack, or anything else. >do you think it's the Russian or rebel forces bombed Luhansk and Donetsk since 2014 Luhansk and Donetsk were being invaded by a foreign country. Why should Ukraine not be able to respond to an invasion, or to terrorists being funded by said foreign country ?

practice9 4y ago

> Russian or rebel forces bombed Luhansk and Donetsk since 2014, and the Zaporizhia nuclear plant since the war started The important distinction to be made, there were no rebel forces, but the separatist forces. You are giving too much grandeur to the group that is used to torturing people [1]. The takeover was controlled by Russian officers as well [2] Also the unofficial existence of anti-retreat forces in Russian forces devalues your argument. If they shoot the deserters, do they really care about the civilians? Especially considering that their propaganda will tell it's "bad" Ukrainians anyway. It defies logic and that's exactly how Russia loves to operate (see: Putin's speeches) This meme just won't go away, because most people don't believe how barbarous and cruel Russians can be. [3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izolyatsia_prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izolyatsia_prison [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_torture_chambers_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_torture_chambers_in_Uk...