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Same for me: People that argument that the western world, NATO and Ukraine were antagonizing Russia and it‘s a just war. I can‘t wrap my head around this mindse

Same for me: People that argument that the western world, NATO and Ukraine were antagonizing Russia and it‘s a just war. I can‘t wrap my head around this mindset. I minimized my interactions with those friends.

typeofhuman 4y ago
Did you consider evaluating or researching their claims? From your comment, it suggests you're rejecting information that doesn't align with your preconceived notions. This is a common bias we all suffer from. But we should be aware of it and try to work against it at times, especially when the consequence is dissolving friendships.
- mongol 4y ago
  It really isn't neccessary. Following current events over the course of decades would tell you all that is needed. No need to "research" obvious lies.
bilqis 4y ago
It’s not a just war, it’s a Russian imperialistic aggression, but let’s not pretend that there weren’t so many enablers and provocateurs on the NATO/US side. Minsk agreements were basically abandoned from the start and no one enforced them, EU ignored Crimea annexation and continued pumping billions of dollars into Russia (you can see these billions now in form of rockets and bombs in Ukraine), NATO has been expanding to the East and antagonising paranoid Russia.
- Tade0 4y ago
  > NATO has been expanding to the East and antagonising paranoid Russia. It's actually independent states which chose to align themselves with NATO instead of Russia. Interestingly in some countries it was the post-communists who spearheaded the effort. Tells you all you need to know about what happens to anyone who choses Russia over the west. It's rarely, if ever a good deal.
  - bilqis 4y ago
    I don’t think “independent states” applies here, especially right after USSR dissolution. There was a lot of corruption, a lot of capital “redistribution” and outside meddling. They got some feeling of security, but also became a tool of US imperialism and a frontline that supposed to take the first hit/make a first strike. I would prefer to be in a neutral position.
    - Tade0 4y ago
      > I would prefer to be in a neutral position. As a citizen of such a country I disagree. After over a generation the effects speak for themselves - those who aligned with the west are now democracies(even if at times lead by populists) with healthy economies which were invested into. Meanwhile those who either aligned with Russia or remained under its influence have very little of the liberty my generation already got used to, rampant corruption and stagnant economies. Personally I prefer the former, as many citizens of the latter really, but they don't have a say in that due to their circumstances. As for safety: Ukraine was supposed to remain neutral in exchange for the nuclear stockpile on its territory, but all it got is an unprovoked invasion from Russia, which doesn't respect such agreements and it's enough to neighbor this country to understand this.
    - koonsolo 4y ago
      > US imperialism Is US handing out passports here in Europe? Are they deporting kids to US, invading countries to make it their own territory? Poisoning politicians that alignn with Russia? Sorry but I haven't seen that. However, we've seen plenty of that coming from Russia. And you wonder why countries like to join NATO (under agreement, begging them to accept), and not Russia (under force). Strange right?
      - bilqis 4y ago
        USA operates differently, securing profits and influence via different means.
        4y ago
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  >Minsk agreements were basically abandoned from the start Because Russia broke them on the first week, yes. >EU ignored Crimea annexation and continued pumping billions of dollars into Russia (you can see these billions now in form of rockets and bombs in Ukraine) How is that western/NATO aggression ? >NATO has been expanding to the East and antagonising paranoid Russia. NATO is not an entity that looks to engulf everything. Countries see themselves next to Russia, see the bullshit that happens when Russia doesn't honor its agreements with the CSTO members (Amernia and Azerbaijain duking it out make everyone realize how much of a joke the CSTO is), and decide to join NATO. There is no "NATO expansion", there is no agreement of not letting new countries join either. Noone is forced at gunpoint to join NATO.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    I think these countries are being forced at gunpoint. The guns are just not held by NATO members.
  - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
    All these countries applied to NATO, but it was NATO that accepted their application. It could also refuse their application or just tell them they won’t be accepted if they apply, like they did when Russia joined NATO partnership and wanted to become a member. Inserted NATO decided to expand to Russian borders but not accept Russia. Which was logical, what is a purpose of a military alliance without a powerful enemy?
    - defrost 4y ago
      Russia didn't apply to join though, they (Putin) expected special treatment. The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-s...
- beefield 4y ago
  Oh, enablers and provocateurs on the west against the underdog Russia. Cry me a river. I absolutely do not like many aspects of the way how US behaves in this planet. What I do not understand is that how anyone thinks that you get any sympathy by trying to fight US/west by being a failed PoS totalitarian developing country. Make yourself a better country than US, wait a decade or a couple and see how old enemies are joining you.
  - bilqis 4y ago
    To become richer (better maybe not the right word to apply to USA, there are many places that are much better) than USA, you have to have the same military might and ability to influence the whole world. This kind of might is directly connected to capital a state controls, and I don’t see anyone outpacing USA any time soon - the cake has been cut long time ago.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > Minsk agreements were basically abandoned from the start and no one enforced them Why would Ukraine follow Minsk when Russia won't even follow the Budapest Memorandum?. Russia never follows agreements when it doesn't suit them and only uses them as leverage or as way to freeze conflicts for them to restart in the future.
  - bilqis 4y ago
    First Minsk agreements were broken, then there was Minsk II that required Ukraine to do specific changes, like federalisation, to which Ukraine leaders agreed, but never proceeded with. Budapest Memorandum was broken in 2022, Minsk II was in 2015. And Russia is not a side of Minsk agreements, at least not directly.
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      > Budapest Memorandum was broken in 2022, Minsk II was in 2015. And Russia is not a side of Minsk agreements, at least not directly. the Budapest Memorandum was broken In 2014 when Russia first invaded. You still haven't given me a reason why Russia gets to unilaterally break there agreements.
      - bilqis 4y ago
        I didn’t say that Russia has any just reasons to break any international agreements, because it doesn’t. However, we’re talking about Minsk II, that looked to me like a good deal for all parties involved, and I think it had the potential to bring peace to these lands first time in 20 years.
        _kbh_ 4y ago
        In what world is Minsk II a good deal for all parties?. It literally gave Ukraine nothing aside from "we stop killing your soldiers". It did exactly what Russia seeks to do, freeze conflicts so they can start them again.
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Enabling by not responding to Crimean aggression, sure, but this > NATO has been expanding to the East and antagonising paranoid Russia. is simply dumb as hell. Gee, I wonder why countries on Russia's borders would want to join NATO? It is truly a mystery for the ages.
concordDance 4y ago
I'd advise not minimising those interactions. Just avoid this particular topic. Then when things are a bit less heated you can show them an alternative point of view.
- Traubenfuchs 4y ago
  As I got older I lost my last bits of interest in changing other peoples worldview. Sometimes I do feel forced to voice my disgust though.
andrepd 4y ago
To be fair, it's actually very easy to wrap your head around that. Consider this for a moment: does anybody pretend that if Mexico were to ally itself with Russia, right on the US's doorstep, that the US would sit still and "respect Mexico's sovereignty to ally with whomever they want"? Please...
- sorenjan 4y ago
  The US would be unanimously condemned if that would happen, but that reasoning is dependent on Russian propaganda that this war is because of NATO provocation. If that was the case, why haven't Russia invaded Finland? Why does Putin say that it's of no consequence that Finland and Sweden has applied for NATO membership? This war is not about Russia not wanting NATO or EU on its borders. It started in 2014 when Ukraine was about to start moving closer to the rest of Europe, and further from Russia. Russia thinks Ukraine belongs to them, it's nothing but pure imperialism. The same thing is happening in Belarus by the way. Lukasjenko is propped up by Putin, and in reality they're basically part of Russia now, with Russian military units and even nuclear weapons.
  - mongol 4y ago
    > Why does Putin say that it's of no consequence that Finland and Sweden has applied for NATO membership? It doesn't matter because he is the biggest liar. It was absolutely not what he and Russia were saying late 2021, before they realized how weak their military was. His and Russias actions show that he can't be trusted for a second.
- CamperBob2 4y ago
  Now, why might Mexico do a thing like that? Discuss.
- timeon 4y ago
  Consider this for a moment. If you need to fabricate a situation just to make the point maybe then the point is not based on strong foundations.
  - 4y ago

typeofhuman 4y ago

Did you consider evaluating or researching their claims? From your comment, it suggests you're rejecting information that doesn't align with your preconceived notions. This is a common bias we all suffer from. But we should be aware of it and try to work against it at times, especially when the consequence is dissolving friendships.

mongol 4y ago
It really isn't neccessary. Following current events over the course of decades would tell you all that is needed. No need to "research" obvious lies.

bilqis 4y ago

It’s not a just war, it’s a Russian imperialistic aggression, but let’s not pretend that there weren’t so many enablers and provocateurs on the NATO/US side. Minsk agreements were basically abandoned from the start and no one enforced them, EU ignored Crimea annexation and continued pumping billions of dollars into Russia (you can see these billions now in form of rockets and bombs in Ukraine), NATO has been expanding to the East and antagonising paranoid Russia.

Tade0 4y ago
> NATO has been expanding to the East and antagonising paranoid Russia. It's actually independent states which chose to align themselves with NATO instead of Russia. Interestingly in some countries it was the post-communists who spearheaded the effort. Tells you all you need to know about what happens to anyone who choses Russia over the west. It's rarely, if ever a good deal.
- bilqis 4y ago
  I don’t think “independent states” applies here, especially right after USSR dissolution. There was a lot of corruption, a lot of capital “redistribution” and outside meddling. They got some feeling of security, but also became a tool of US imperialism and a frontline that supposed to take the first hit/make a first strike. I would prefer to be in a neutral position.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    > I would prefer to be in a neutral position. As a citizen of such a country I disagree. After over a generation the effects speak for themselves - those who aligned with the west are now democracies(even if at times lead by populists) with healthy economies which were invested into. Meanwhile those who either aligned with Russia or remained under its influence have very little of the liberty my generation already got used to, rampant corruption and stagnant economies. Personally I prefer the former, as many citizens of the latter really, but they don't have a say in that due to their circumstances. As for safety: Ukraine was supposed to remain neutral in exchange for the nuclear stockpile on its territory, but all it got is an unprovoked invasion from Russia, which doesn't respect such agreements and it's enough to neighbor this country to understand this.
  - koonsolo 4y ago
    > US imperialism Is US handing out passports here in Europe? Are they deporting kids to US, invading countries to make it their own territory? Poisoning politicians that alignn with Russia? Sorry but I haven't seen that. However, we've seen plenty of that coming from Russia. And you wonder why countries like to join NATO (under agreement, begging them to accept), and not Russia (under force). Strange right?
    - bilqis 4y ago
      USA operates differently, securing profits and influence via different means.
      - 4y ago
ohgodplsno 4y ago
>Minsk agreements were basically abandoned from the start Because Russia broke them on the first week, yes. >EU ignored Crimea annexation and continued pumping billions of dollars into Russia (you can see these billions now in form of rockets and bombs in Ukraine) How is that western/NATO aggression ? >NATO has been expanding to the East and antagonising paranoid Russia. NATO is not an entity that looks to engulf everything. Countries see themselves next to Russia, see the bullshit that happens when Russia doesn't honor its agreements with the CSTO members (Amernia and Azerbaijain duking it out make everyone realize how much of a joke the CSTO is), and decide to join NATO. There is no "NATO expansion", there is no agreement of not letting new countries join either. Noone is forced at gunpoint to join NATO.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  I think these countries are being forced at gunpoint. The guns are just not held by NATO members.
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  All these countries applied to NATO, but it was NATO that accepted their application. It could also refuse their application or just tell them they won’t be accepted if they apply, like they did when Russia joined NATO partnership and wanted to become a member. Inserted NATO decided to expand to Russian borders but not accept Russia. Which was logical, what is a purpose of a military alliance without a powerful enemy?
  - defrost 4y ago
    Russia didn't apply to join though, they (Putin) expected special treatment. The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-s...
beefield 4y ago
Oh, enablers and provocateurs on the west against the underdog Russia. Cry me a river. I absolutely do not like many aspects of the way how US behaves in this planet. What I do not understand is that how anyone thinks that you get any sympathy by trying to fight US/west by being a failed PoS totalitarian developing country. Make yourself a better country than US, wait a decade or a couple and see how old enemies are joining you.
- bilqis 4y ago
  To become richer (better maybe not the right word to apply to USA, there are many places that are much better) than USA, you have to have the same military might and ability to influence the whole world. This kind of might is directly connected to capital a state controls, and I don’t see anyone outpacing USA any time soon - the cake has been cut long time ago.
_kbh_ 4y ago
> Minsk agreements were basically abandoned from the start and no one enforced them Why would Ukraine follow Minsk when Russia won't even follow the Budapest Memorandum?. Russia never follows agreements when it doesn't suit them and only uses them as leverage or as way to freeze conflicts for them to restart in the future.
- bilqis 4y ago
  First Minsk agreements were broken, then there was Minsk II that required Ukraine to do specific changes, like federalisation, to which Ukraine leaders agreed, but never proceeded with. Budapest Memorandum was broken in 2022, Minsk II was in 2015. And Russia is not a side of Minsk agreements, at least not directly.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > Budapest Memorandum was broken in 2022, Minsk II was in 2015. And Russia is not a side of Minsk agreements, at least not directly. the Budapest Memorandum was broken In 2014 when Russia first invaded. You still haven't given me a reason why Russia gets to unilaterally break there agreements.
    - bilqis 4y ago
      I didn’t say that Russia has any just reasons to break any international agreements, because it doesn’t. However, we’re talking about Minsk II, that looked to me like a good deal for all parties involved, and I think it had the potential to bring peace to these lands first time in 20 years.
      - _kbh_ 4y ago
        In what world is Minsk II a good deal for all parties?. It literally gave Ukraine nothing aside from "we stop killing your soldiers". It did exactly what Russia seeks to do, freeze conflicts so they can start them again.
TulliusCicero 4y ago
Enabling by not responding to Crimean aggression, sure, but this > NATO has been expanding to the East and antagonising paranoid Russia. is simply dumb as hell. Gee, I wonder why countries on Russia's borders would want to join NATO? It is truly a mystery for the ages.

concordDance 4y ago

I'd advise not minimising those interactions. Just avoid this particular topic. Then when things are a bit less heated you can show them an alternative point of view.

Traubenfuchs 4y ago
As I got older I lost my last bits of interest in changing other peoples worldview. Sometimes I do feel forced to voice my disgust though.

andrepd 4y ago

To be fair, it's actually very easy to wrap your head around that. Consider this for a moment: does anybody pretend that if Mexico were to ally itself with Russia, right on the US's doorstep, that the US would sit still and "respect Mexico's sovereignty to ally with whomever they want"? Please...

sorenjan 4y ago
The US would be unanimously condemned if that would happen, but that reasoning is dependent on Russian propaganda that this war is because of NATO provocation. If that was the case, why haven't Russia invaded Finland? Why does Putin say that it's of no consequence that Finland and Sweden has applied for NATO membership? This war is not about Russia not wanting NATO or EU on its borders. It started in 2014 when Ukraine was about to start moving closer to the rest of Europe, and further from Russia. Russia thinks Ukraine belongs to them, it's nothing but pure imperialism. The same thing is happening in Belarus by the way. Lukasjenko is propped up by Putin, and in reality they're basically part of Russia now, with Russian military units and even nuclear weapons.
- mongol 4y ago
  > Why does Putin say that it's of no consequence that Finland and Sweden has applied for NATO membership? It doesn't matter because he is the biggest liar. It was absolutely not what he and Russia were saying late 2021, before they realized how weak their military was. His and Russias actions show that he can't be trusted for a second.
CamperBob2 4y ago
Now, why might Mexico do a thing like that? Discuss.
timeon 4y ago
Consider this for a moment. If you need to fabricate a situation just to make the point maybe then the point is not based on strong foundations.
- 4y ago