4 ms·

Um...Python, C++, Linux, Erlang, mobile phones (Nokia), Spotify, HTML... Having worked for both European and US companies, I would say that a) innovation is mu

by danjac 4y ago

Um...Python, C++, Linux, Erlang, mobile phones (Nokia), Spotify, HTML... Having worked for both European and US companies, I would say that a) innovation is mutual (we learn from each other) and talent/mediocrity are pretty much evenly distributed. The US has a more "dynamic" economy in some sense - for example the VC ecosystem is far better funded - but is detrimental in others (Byzantine health care system deters would-be entrepreneurs).

roenxi 4y ago
And yet if we take a snapshot literally right now: Guido van Rossum - Microsoft Distinguished Engineer Bjarne Stroustrup - professor of Computer Science at Columbia University (City of New York) Linus Torvalds - Nationality American/US since 2010 (should I write GNU/American/US? Someone educate me). Erlang - I don't know anything about Erlang so I've got nothing to say. Nokia - brutally ejected from the market by the Americans, bought out and sepukku-ed under Microsoft leadership. Now phones may as well be an Asian technology. Oversaw the collapse of European leadership in the mobile space, to the point where it is going to be a case study in how to fail at innovation. Spotify - Leading EU tech success story. Makes up 50% of the counterexamples, along with ASML. Not detectable as a serious tech company when compared to Google, Microsoft, Amazon, etc, etc. HTML - I mean, we'd probably have managed without the Europeans on this one. Although useful, HTML isn't a very technical accomplishment. Anyone could invent this, including most CS undergrads.
- anonyfox 4y ago
  You are not wrong but also forgot the reasons… Most stuff you cheer here is basically a few tech giants out of Silicon Valley. The science kickstart for all that came from a bunch of scientists (like Von neumann) you got when winning WW2 from europe. In a time when many potential competitors were still rebuilding from ruins. This is over now, europeans tend to no longer go to the us but still produce excellent scientists, Asian countries catched up and both continents start to leave the US behind in most aspects as a desirable place to live, except for 2 things: Military power and billionaires. Enjoy your 5 tech giants while they last, but also keep in mind that these are international now and draw from nonamerican intellectual power also.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    > The science kickstart for all that came from a bunch of scientists (like Von neumann) you got when winning WW2 from europe. Don't forget that the USians would all be speaking Japanese if it wasn't for the technology they "borrowed" from the British. American "RADAR" was a laughable non-starter until they got shown how to make magnetrons by Randall and Boot.
- danjac 4y ago
  That's the point though. Van Rossum, Stroustrup and Torvalds made their name early on in their careers or even at college, while still in Europe. Sure, later on they emigrated to the US for the money, but that was on the back of their accomplishments. Of course Nokia was eclipsed by foreign competition (mostly due to terrible management), but it was still innovative in its time. Just as US companies today face competition from Asia. > Although useful, HTML isn't a very technical accomplishment. Anyone could invent this, including most CS undergrads. Yes, but they didn't, did they? It's easy to look at something with 20/20 hindsight and say "anyone could have done this". Back in 1989 Berners-Lee had that insight.
- finikytou 4y ago
  this is right. but its mostly the proof that when you have the highest military spending in the western world you suddenly get things moving your way.
  - anonyfox 4y ago
    Ever played some civilization (the game)? A mostly military focussed society can force others into unfavorable agreements, but while doing so other areas of society are lacking, amounting to huge problems later on when a) blackmailing for some reason stops working b) non-military related businesses are vanishing c) increasing %share of your population has a degrading life quality d) military costs become unsustainable for questionable ROI … doubling down on military is a death spiral, especially when the funding money comes from slashing public services.
- namaria 4y ago
  "Europe is irrelevant" is such a weird take for a country built by Europeans, populated by Europeans, using European legal system, European language, etc etc.
  - tekknik 4y ago
    Yet we don’t call ourselves European, perhaps because of a divorce in somewhat recent history.
- ta1243 4y ago
  > HTML ... Anyone could invent this, including most CS undergrads. Yes, For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software.

by danjac 4y ago

roenxi 4y ago

And yet if we take a snapshot literally right now: Guido van Rossum - Microsoft Distinguished Engineer Bjarne Stroustrup - professor of Computer Science at Columbia University (City of New York) Linus Torvalds - Nationality American/US since 2010 (should I write GNU/American/US? Someone educate me). Erlang - I don't know anything about Erlang so I've got nothing to say. Nokia - brutally ejected from the market by the Americans, bought out and sepukku-ed under Microsoft leadership. Now phones may as well be an Asian technology. Oversaw the collapse of European leadership in the mobile space, to the point where it is going to be a case study in how to fail at innovation. Spotify - Leading EU tech success story. Makes up 50% of the counterexamples, along with ASML. Not detectable as a serious tech company when compared to Google, Microsoft, Amazon, etc, etc. HTML - I mean, we'd probably have managed without the Europeans on this one. Although useful, HTML isn't a very technical accomplishment. Anyone could invent this, including most CS undergrads.

anonyfox 4y ago
You are not wrong but also forgot the reasons… Most stuff you cheer here is basically a few tech giants out of Silicon Valley. The science kickstart for all that came from a bunch of scientists (like Von neumann) you got when winning WW2 from europe. In a time when many potential competitors were still rebuilding from ruins. This is over now, europeans tend to no longer go to the us but still produce excellent scientists, Asian countries catched up and both continents start to leave the US behind in most aspects as a desirable place to live, except for 2 things: Military power and billionaires. Enjoy your 5 tech giants while they last, but also keep in mind that these are international now and draw from nonamerican intellectual power also.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  > The science kickstart for all that came from a bunch of scientists (like Von neumann) you got when winning WW2 from europe. Don't forget that the USians would all be speaking Japanese if it wasn't for the technology they "borrowed" from the British. American "RADAR" was a laughable non-starter until they got shown how to make magnetrons by Randall and Boot.
danjac 4y ago
That's the point though. Van Rossum, Stroustrup and Torvalds made their name early on in their careers or even at college, while still in Europe. Sure, later on they emigrated to the US for the money, but that was on the back of their accomplishments. Of course Nokia was eclipsed by foreign competition (mostly due to terrible management), but it was still innovative in its time. Just as US companies today face competition from Asia. > Although useful, HTML isn't a very technical accomplishment. Anyone could invent this, including most CS undergrads. Yes, but they didn't, did they? It's easy to look at something with 20/20 hindsight and say "anyone could have done this". Back in 1989 Berners-Lee had that insight.
finikytou 4y ago
this is right. but its mostly the proof that when you have the highest military spending in the western world you suddenly get things moving your way.
- anonyfox 4y ago
  Ever played some civilization (the game)? A mostly military focussed society can force others into unfavorable agreements, but while doing so other areas of society are lacking, amounting to huge problems later on when a) blackmailing for some reason stops working b) non-military related businesses are vanishing c) increasing %share of your population has a degrading life quality d) military costs become unsustainable for questionable ROI … doubling down on military is a death spiral, especially when the funding money comes from slashing public services.
namaria 4y ago
"Europe is irrelevant" is such a weird take for a country built by Europeans, populated by Europeans, using European legal system, European language, etc etc.
- tekknik 4y ago
  Yet we don’t call ourselves European, perhaps because of a divorce in somewhat recent history.
ta1243 4y ago
> HTML ... Anyone could invent this, including most CS undergrads. Yes, For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software.