3 ms·

upvoting because i fiercely agree with you. servers should be UTC.

lionkor 4y ago
Assuming servers should be UTC because timezones are hard, you could say servers should be airgapped because security is hard. Or that you should only type ASCII because Unicode is hard. I mean, yes, you can do that, but don't pretend that a program not handling unicode is the user's fault for typing unicode (s/unicode/timezones, s/typing/using). EDIT: I'm just saying that you can't blame the user for using the features that come with the system.
- bombcar 4y ago
  It’s all true but you will have a harder life if you give all your servers Unicode names and directories and set them to some obscure time zone that is 15 minutes off.
  - throw0101b 4y ago
    > […] set them to some obscure time zone that is 15 minutes off. For anyone curious: > On the flip side, there’s one border where traveling north or south puts you ahead or behind just 15 minutes. That would be the border between India (UTC +5.5) and Nepal (UTC +5.75). * https://qz.com/357697/time-zone-deviants-part-i-the-strangest-time-zones-in-the-world https://qz.com/357697/time-zone-deviants-part-i-the-stranges... * https://www.worldtimeserver.com/learn/unusual-time-zones/ https://www.worldtimeserver.com/learn/unusual-time-zones/
    - bombcar 4y ago
      The inverse of this is your test systems should be set to Nepal and India and use Unicode names for everything that has a text field. It’ll smoke out all sorts of fun.
- bagels 4y ago
  It doesn't really matter if it's hard or not, you will simply just keep running in to problems like this without such a policy.
  - tedunangst 4y ago
    Or use better written software that does work.
    - bagels 4y ago
      So, get rid of systemd over this? Seems impractical.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dspillett 4y ago
  (you appear to have triggered some downvote fairies by having a differing opinion, have an up to compensate a little! I disagree too as documented below but unless something truly offensive is said I'm of the option that downvoting is generally a bad response) > you could say servers should be airgapped because security is hard Many effectively do, and I wish more would do, as a default starting point. Maybe not physically air-gapped but firewall all incoming and outgoing then selectively allow packets through as specifically needed. Translating to timezones: default to UTC and configure hosted software to display local timezones as needed. Only have the system in a different TZ if something won't work properly otherwise (including it can't be configured to display in something other than the system TZ) or is date sensitive and buggy in a way that it gets confused about yesterday/today/tomorrow when local midnight and UTC midnight differ. Also if considering resources used by people in multiple timezones, you have to pick something and translate for others, you might as well pick UTC as some things assume it. > Or that you should only type ASCII because Unicode is hard. Again yes, by default, and always for things like hostnames, and adjust at needed or when you know Unicode is supported end-to-end (or that where it isn't, something just looks wrong and firefighting that is preferable to not sticking to ASCII in the first place). Though it helps from my point of view that the most obvious omission from ASCII in my locale is our currency symbol. I say the same for spaces in filenames too: while you perhaps shouldn't have to avoid them, in practise you are setting yourself up for potential trouble later if you don't. > EDIT: I'm just saying that you can't blame the user for using the features that come with the system. I agree completely. But, for instance, while I won't victim blame when someone accidentally leaves doors unlocked and has things stolen, I do make an effort to be damn sure my doors and windows are secure and recommend others do too. There is a difference between victim blaming and recommending preventative defaults because you know there is shit code it there.

Assuming servers should be UTC because timezones are hard, you could say servers should be airgapped because security is hard. Or that you should only type ASCII because Unicode is hard. I mean, yes, you can do that, but don't pretend that a program not handling unicode is the user's fault for typing unicode (s/unicode/timezones, s/typing/using). EDIT: I'm just saying that you can't blame the user for using the features that come with the system.

bombcar 4y ago
It’s all true but you will have a harder life if you give all your servers Unicode names and directories and set them to some obscure time zone that is 15 minutes off.
- throw0101b 4y ago
  > […] set them to some obscure time zone that is 15 minutes off. For anyone curious: > On the flip side, there’s one border where traveling north or south puts you ahead or behind just 15 minutes. That would be the border between India (UTC +5.5) and Nepal (UTC +5.75). * https://qz.com/357697/time-zone-deviants-part-i-the-strangest-time-zones-in-the-world https://qz.com/357697/time-zone-deviants-part-i-the-stranges... * https://www.worldtimeserver.com/learn/unusual-time-zones/ https://www.worldtimeserver.com/learn/unusual-time-zones/
  - bombcar 4y ago
    The inverse of this is your test systems should be set to Nepal and India and use Unicode names for everything that has a text field. It’ll smoke out all sorts of fun.
bagels 4y ago
It doesn't really matter if it's hard or not, you will simply just keep running in to problems like this without such a policy.
- tedunangst 4y ago
  Or use better written software that does work.
  - bagels 4y ago
    So, get rid of systemd over this? Seems impractical.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dspillett 4y ago
(you appear to have triggered some downvote fairies by having a differing opinion, have an up to compensate a little! I disagree too as documented below but unless something truly offensive is said I'm of the option that downvoting is generally a bad response) > you could say servers should be airgapped because security is hard Many effectively do, and I wish more would do, as a default starting point. Maybe not physically air-gapped but firewall all incoming and outgoing then selectively allow packets through as specifically needed. Translating to timezones: default to UTC and configure hosted software to display local timezones as needed. Only have the system in a different TZ if something won't work properly otherwise (including it can't be configured to display in something other than the system TZ) or is date sensitive and buggy in a way that it gets confused about yesterday/today/tomorrow when local midnight and UTC midnight differ. Also if considering resources used by people in multiple timezones, you have to pick something and translate for others, you might as well pick UTC as some things assume it. > Or that you should only type ASCII because Unicode is hard. Again yes, by default, and always for things like hostnames, and adjust at needed or when you know Unicode is supported end-to-end (or that where it isn't, something just looks wrong and firefighting that is preferable to not sticking to ASCII in the first place). Though it helps from my point of view that the most obvious omission from ASCII in my locale is our currency symbol. I say the same for spaces in filenames too: while you perhaps shouldn't have to avoid them, in practise you are setting yourself up for potential trouble later if you don't. > EDIT: I'm just saying that you can't blame the user for using the features that come with the system. I agree completely. But, for instance, while I won't victim blame when someone accidentally leaves doors unlocked and has things stolen, I do make an effort to be damn sure my doors and windows are secure and recommend others do too. There is a difference between victim blaming and recommending preventative defaults because you know there is shit code it there.