5 ms·

> Privatized health care as a person's sole option for care is an absolute dystopian nightmare. Dont exaggerate. I've lived in 3 European countries and Austral

by rr808 4y ago

> Privatized health care as a person's sole option for care is an absolute dystopian nightmare. Dont exaggerate. I've lived in 3 European countries and Australia. My American healthcare is easily better than those. Sure I'm lucky to have a good job that pays for it, but you can't say its terrible without looking at how those public systems are really struggling right now.

walls 4y ago
Oh, well as long as you personally have not yet had a problem. Everything is fine everyone, no need to worry.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
jfengel 4y ago
The article suggests that your health care isn't as good as you think it is. You never know if you'll be one of those cases where they make you fight for every bit of care you get. Some Americans do get excellent care with a minimum of grief. Others think their insurance is fine while they're healthy and only discover later that it doesn't really cover what they imagine it does. And the difference is entirely arbitrary. The fundamental problem of health insurance is that you cannot know what you will need, and there is no way to make an informed consumer choice, but your need when you have it is absolute. It's pathologically pessimal as a free market. And you usually don't know until it's too late.
- b59831 4y ago
  > The article suggests... Maybe because it's a politicized topic? How can you smugly dismiss their point like that?
  - stonogo 4y ago
    > How can you smugly dismiss their point like that? Because "it's fine if you're rich" is a shitty place to terminate the matter. It's not a useful counterargument in any sense. Of course it's fine if you're rich, that's why people want to be rich. What about, you know, the rest of the planet?
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
  ProPublica has been known to twist facts. They are not the final word in this.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- lumb63 4y ago
  You cannot know what you will need, but to leap from that and say that you cannot make an informed consumer choice is a huge and incorrect leap. Actuaries know, in aggregate, what specific demographics will need. Insurance companies use those statistics to make profit. The view that consumers cannot make informed choices on healthcare needs is incompatible with the fact that risks are not perfectly and uniformly random. Unless, by “informed choice”, you mean one that is correct in hindsight, in which case, I agree.
ryanSrich 4y ago
Yeah this is a very common sentiment. I feel like most people in the US haven’t actually talked to someone that has experience with socialized healthcare at scale. I had a German professor that was very clear about just how much better healthcare is in the US.
- rqtwteye 4y ago
  I am from Germany and agree that US healthcare is very shiny. But once you get sick it’s very easy to get stuck in an extremely expensive bureaucratic nightmare between hospitals and insurances. I prefer the German system where I can go to a doctor or ride an ambulance without the fear of having to pay tons of money.
  - karmelapple 4y ago
    The German healthcare system was surprising to me. It was affordable, it was fairly honest, and our anecdotal experience was not as good as most experienced we’ve had in the USA. A few examples for those wondering: * the total cost for over a week stay was a couple hundred dollars - very affordable! * certain painkillers banned in the USA were the first line of defense there * getting very strong pain killers was next to impossible - I think we probably only got it because we were family members of the anesthesiologist, and he knew we needed it. And it took nearly 24 hours of agonized pain before we could finally get them * nurses are not trained to put in IVs - we needed an MD for that. And the MD had a lot of things to do and we had to wait quite awhile even though there were many nurses around. In the USA, I think most people with the title of nurse can do that
    - kube-system 4y ago
      In the US people with the title of nurse can be someone who is highly skilled and is playing an important hands-on role in major and complicated surgeries. I think some other places around the world use the title nurse for what may be a medical assistant in the US. (No clue about Germany though)
    - kwhitefoot 4y ago
hayst4ck 4y ago
Do you think your health care experience represents the median healthcare experience in all 5 countries? If we divide up people into percentiles based on wealth, 25, 50, 75, 95, how do you think people fare in the different countries? How do you think they the median experience is in America?
- rr808 4y ago
  Totally if you're poor in the USA the healthcare medicaid is OK not great. If you have a little bit of money so dont get medicare its an expensive disgrace.
interstice 4y ago
An ironic use of the phrase survivorship bias springs to mind
EnglishRobin96 4y ago
Having lived the opposite, I have to strongly disagree. I lived the nightmare of US healthcare, where my provider decided to stop working in my state, which meant that I no longer had access to any doctors under health insurance despite it being paid for by my company. The UK was amazing - no questions asked care for my health was a massive improvement over what I had in the US. Free access to a doctor at any time is more life changing that you can think - every health issue I had I could talk to a medical professional and get guidance. Even free mental health care. Moved to Ireland last year, with a mixed public/private system, and my health is now slipping a bit. Going to a GP, trying to file for reimbursements, and knowing that every time I have a health concern, it will cost me money, is a powerful suppressing force. I miss the NHS.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ugh123 4y ago
> a good job that pays for it If that's whats necessary to get decent health care in this country, then something isn't right.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Technically, you just need money to pay for it. However, buying the employer’s choice lets you pay for premiums with pre tax funds, and the employer usually subsidizes 70% of the premiums. So for an individual, it is roughly a $10k per year benefit to get it via employer and for a family of 4, $40k per year benefit.
  - menage 4y ago
    That's not true. As I discovered when my COBRA ran out recently, finding individual plans that match the coverage of employer plans is very hard or impossible, regardless of how much you're willing to pay.
    - moate 4y ago
      You’re telling me a mega-corp buying coverage for 10000+ employees might have an advantage in negotiating price that a single “rugged individual” doesn’t?! But that sort of thinking could burst the whole “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” thinking that fuels the American dream! Clearly all individuals (both single citizens and corporate entities)are the same other the law!
      - menage 4y ago
        Not a question of price, so much as any plan with access to particular doctors/hospitals.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      I’ve always been able to find the same or similar BCBS plan my employers offer on healthcare.gov. If it has the same metal level (platinum/gold/silver/bronze), it should be the same actuarial value. Only thing that Carrie’s
CogitoCogito 4y ago
My personal healthcare in Sweden has been higher quality (considering both personal cost and state cost) than my healthcare in US. I have heard complaints the other way of course. Regardless of our personal experiences, the US spends so an enormous amount on healthcare and gets very little in return by basically all international measurements. Americans who think American healthcare seem to me too insecure to accept that their system is just plain bad. But yes Americans with a lot of money have access to better healthcare than average Americans. That said, this is essentially true in all countries so it's not that relevant really.
mertd 4y ago
We need to realize that publicized healthcare is the only option. Then we can focus on how to make it more efficient.
- nobodyandproud 4y ago
  Unions on the left and most of the right are deadset against this. It’s astonishing how much market inefficiency we’re willing to tolerate.
globalise83 4y ago
The important question is: have you ever made a large claim for a serious long-term illness? If not, you aren't yet in a position to judge the two systems.
mavelikara 4y ago
> Sure I'm lucky to have a good job that pays for it, That is not where you are lucky. You are lucky to be healthy enough that you can hold on to that job. Once your health takes a bad turn, and you are unable to work, when you really need your healthcare, that's when you are better positioned to judge the quality of healthcare.
- rr808 4y ago
  Yes that is true.

by rr808 4y ago

walls 4y ago

Oh, well as long as you personally have not yet had a problem. Everything is fine everyone, no need to worry.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jfengel 4y ago

The article suggests that your health care isn't as good as you think it is. You never know if you'll be one of those cases where they make you fight for every bit of care you get. Some Americans do get excellent care with a minimum of grief. Others think their insurance is fine while they're healthy and only discover later that it doesn't really cover what they imagine it does. And the difference is entirely arbitrary. The fundamental problem of health insurance is that you cannot know what you will need, and there is no way to make an informed consumer choice, but your need when you have it is absolute. It's pathologically pessimal as a free market. And you usually don't know until it's too late.

b59831 4y ago
> The article suggests... Maybe because it's a politicized topic? How can you smugly dismiss their point like that?
- stonogo 4y ago
  > How can you smugly dismiss their point like that? Because "it's fine if you're rich" is a shitty place to terminate the matter. It's not a useful counterargument in any sense. Of course it's fine if you're rich, that's why people want to be rich. What about, you know, the rest of the planet?
cscurmudgeon 4y ago
ProPublica has been known to twist facts. They are not the final word in this.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
lumb63 4y ago
You cannot know what you will need, but to leap from that and say that you cannot make an informed consumer choice is a huge and incorrect leap. Actuaries know, in aggregate, what specific demographics will need. Insurance companies use those statistics to make profit. The view that consumers cannot make informed choices on healthcare needs is incompatible with the fact that risks are not perfectly and uniformly random. Unless, by “informed choice”, you mean one that is correct in hindsight, in which case, I agree.

ryanSrich 4y ago

Yeah this is a very common sentiment. I feel like most people in the US haven’t actually talked to someone that has experience with socialized healthcare at scale. I had a German professor that was very clear about just how much better healthcare is in the US.

rqtwteye 4y ago
I am from Germany and agree that US healthcare is very shiny. But once you get sick it’s very easy to get stuck in an extremely expensive bureaucratic nightmare between hospitals and insurances. I prefer the German system where I can go to a doctor or ride an ambulance without the fear of having to pay tons of money.
- karmelapple 4y ago
  The German healthcare system was surprising to me. It was affordable, it was fairly honest, and our anecdotal experience was not as good as most experienced we’ve had in the USA. A few examples for those wondering: * the total cost for over a week stay was a couple hundred dollars - very affordable! * certain painkillers banned in the USA were the first line of defense there * getting very strong pain killers was next to impossible - I think we probably only got it because we were family members of the anesthesiologist, and he knew we needed it. And it took nearly 24 hours of agonized pain before we could finally get them * nurses are not trained to put in IVs - we needed an MD for that. And the MD had a lot of things to do and we had to wait quite awhile even though there were many nurses around. In the USA, I think most people with the title of nurse can do that
  - kube-system 4y ago
    In the US people with the title of nurse can be someone who is highly skilled and is playing an important hands-on role in major and complicated surgeries. I think some other places around the world use the title nurse for what may be a medical assistant in the US. (No clue about Germany though)
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago

hayst4ck 4y ago

Do you think your health care experience represents the median healthcare experience in all 5 countries? If we divide up people into percentiles based on wealth, 25, 50, 75, 95, how do you think people fare in the different countries? How do you think they the median experience is in America?

rr808 4y ago
Totally if you're poor in the USA the healthcare medicaid is OK not great. If you have a little bit of money so dont get medicare its an expensive disgrace.

interstice 4y ago

An ironic use of the phrase survivorship bias springs to mind

EnglishRobin96 4y ago

Having lived the opposite, I have to strongly disagree. I lived the nightmare of US healthcare, where my provider decided to stop working in my state, which meant that I no longer had access to any doctors under health insurance despite it being paid for by my company. The UK was amazing - no questions asked care for my health was a massive improvement over what I had in the US. Free access to a doctor at any time is more life changing that you can think - every health issue I had I could talk to a medical professional and get guidance. Even free mental health care. Moved to Ireland last year, with a mixed public/private system, and my health is now slipping a bit. Going to a GP, trying to file for reimbursements, and knowing that every time I have a health concern, it will cost me money, is a powerful suppressing force. I miss the NHS.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ugh123 4y ago

> a good job that pays for it If that's whats necessary to get decent health care in this country, then something isn't right.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
Technically, you just need money to pay for it. However, buying the employer’s choice lets you pay for premiums with pre tax funds, and the employer usually subsidizes 70% of the premiums. So for an individual, it is roughly a $10k per year benefit to get it via employer and for a family of 4, $40k per year benefit.
- menage 4y ago
  That's not true. As I discovered when my COBRA ran out recently, finding individual plans that match the coverage of employer plans is very hard or impossible, regardless of how much you're willing to pay.
  - moate 4y ago
    You’re telling me a mega-corp buying coverage for 10000+ employees might have an advantage in negotiating price that a single “rugged individual” doesn’t?! But that sort of thinking could burst the whole “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” thinking that fuels the American dream! Clearly all individuals (both single citizens and corporate entities)are the same other the law!
    - menage 4y ago
      Not a question of price, so much as any plan with access to particular doctors/hospitals.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I’ve always been able to find the same or similar BCBS plan my employers offer on healthcare.gov. If it has the same metal level (platinum/gold/silver/bronze), it should be the same actuarial value. Only thing that Carrie’s

CogitoCogito 4y ago

My personal healthcare in Sweden has been higher quality (considering both personal cost and state cost) than my healthcare in US. I have heard complaints the other way of course. Regardless of our personal experiences, the US spends so an enormous amount on healthcare and gets very little in return by basically all international measurements. Americans who think American healthcare seem to me too insecure to accept that their system is just plain bad. But yes Americans with a lot of money have access to better healthcare than average Americans. That said, this is essentially true in all countries so it's not that relevant really.

mertd 4y ago

We need to realize that publicized healthcare is the only option. Then we can focus on how to make it more efficient.

nobodyandproud 4y ago
Unions on the left and most of the right are deadset against this. It’s astonishing how much market inefficiency we’re willing to tolerate.

globalise83 4y ago

The important question is: have you ever made a large claim for a serious long-term illness? If not, you aren't yet in a position to judge the two systems.

mavelikara 4y ago

> Sure I'm lucky to have a good job that pays for it, That is not where you are lucky. You are lucky to be healthy enough that you can hold on to that job. Once your health takes a bad turn, and you are unable to work, when you really need your healthcare, that's when you are better positioned to judge the quality of healthcare.

rr808 4y ago
Yes that is true.