3 ms·

There is no explanation there. There is no articulated reason why "dominant breeder" (the new preferred term) is more accurate. The term "alpha" literally just

There is no explanation there. There is no articulated reason why "dominant breeder" (the new preferred term) is more accurate. The term "alpha" literally just means "first," as it has meant for millennia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_numerals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_numerals If wolves truly have no dominance hierarchy at all, then you can claim that the idea of there being an "alpha" or "first" is a myth. In any situation beyond that, this is just pseudoscientific pandering nonsense trolling for clicks.

ononon 4y ago
yea it’s basically bc masculinity (courage, independent thinking) = bad to people in power so they publish this kind of crap all day every day
- taurawah 4y ago
  weird thing to suggest that courage and independent thinking are masculine traits
  - nyrikki 4y ago
    “The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready is he to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause.” - Eric Hoffer The True Believer
  - gordian-mind 4y ago
    Is it wrong or is it true? What's weird is your choice of words.
    - nyrikki 4y ago
      Claims about masculinity are often defined in opposition to ideas about femininity. The claim that woman cannot be courageous or independent thinkers is wrong. And as for societal ideals, specifically in response to a post showing that the concept of being a leader through aggression is also wrong. Aggression is often a response to fear. Aggression is a secondary emotion, typically a response to pain or fear. I personally view aggressive behavior and the attempt to gain status through aggression as a reason to pity someone far more than it ever makes me respect them. If aggression is your primary method of gaining status you are not courageous, you are weak and lashing out. I pity those people because they tend to undervalued their own merits and instead of having the courage to lead by example or to be confident in their positions they have to resort to methods ranging from name calling to physical violence. A true leader doesn't need to resort to unrestrained fear based responses to gain or maintain status. By definition those who have to resort to aggression are weak and full of self doubt. Actions based on fear are not the actions of confident individuals but the actions of cowards resorting to letting fear drive their lives. Which is exactly why the original studies found 'alpha' behaviors in stressed populations. If you read the above papers you will find that in wolves, submission for the betterment of the pack takes much more courage than aggression. Incels tend to like the 'alpha' concept because it is justification for not stepping up and accepting that they have caused many of their own problems. It is only viewed as 'courage' to other individuals with low self worth. If you truly believe that aggression is courageous I sincerely suggest you work on looking at the examples of truly courageous people and not seeking the approval of low esteem individuals who make other low self esteem individuals feel better by idealizing fear based outbursts. Bullies are pitiful creatures who have to resort victimizing others to feel better about themselves. Typically people who yield to bullies don't respect them and those who aren't filled with self doubt simply pity them. Aggression for personal gain is a sign of weakness and doesn't relate to the concepts you mentioned.
    - jccalhoun 4y ago
      Do you have any evidence you can provide that it is true?
      - gordian-mind 4y ago
        If it was true, would it be weird to mention it?
- YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
  I'm female and I'm courageous and an independent thinker. The question is always: what does it take to prove it, to those who think those traits mean "masculinity" and therefore I can't possibly have them.
  - gordian-mind 4y ago
    If I tell you "men are stronger than women", do you think that showing me a strong woman will invalidate my claim?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
      I'm sorry, are we talking about physical strength or courage and independent thinking? I'm confused.
      - gordian-mind 4y ago
        Wait, who's talking about what? Who are you?
nyrikki 4y ago
No multiple sources have explained that 'alpha' implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. Here is another. https://wolf.org/headlines/44265/ https://wolf.org/headlines/44265/ You are offering a false dichotomy and suggesting that gaining dominance through force or challenge is the only path to authority. Also a 'dominance hierarchy' can exist without the need for contest or battle. If you have worked around dogs outside of the silly 'alpha' concept you will notice that dominant members can impact the behaviors of other members with a simple look or by withholding attention and positive reinforcement. This is why real professional dog training for working dogs is almost exclusively positive reinforcement these days. Fear and intimidation is a rather poor training method for domestic dogs. Of course if you want to discard the original meaning of 'alpha' as presented by the people who originally coined the term for your own personal definition no evidence they offer that their previous research was wrong will fit you expectations. 'Alpha' was specifically coined to describe their misunderstanding of behavior at the time and doesn't simply imply 'first' in their context. Dominance and aggression are separate behaviors that may have intersection but gaining status through aggression tends to result in unstable relationships and is incredibly expensive to males in species where it is a predominant method of gaining status. Wolves rarely gain status within their group through aggression, thus labeling the primary breeding pairs as 'alpha' by default is scientifically incorrect. Most of the status of the breeding pair was gained through breeding and not aggression and in reality true aggression is simply not typically tolerated by the dominant members of the pack.
- torstenvl 4y ago
  > No multiple sources have explained that 'alpha' implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. Uhhhh... > The concept of the alpha wolf is well ingrained in the popular wolf literature, at least partly because of my book “The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species,”... You are directly contradicting the author you're claiming to support. This isn't an episode of Dr. Who. Time travel does not exist. Two things cannot cause one another over the course of a fifty year span. Either the concept of "alpha wolf" arose from Mech's work (in which case it didn't imply anything because it was a wholly new term), or it didn't (in which case it wasn't his idea and him repudiating it doesn't carry the weight you think it does).

ononon 4y ago

yea it’s basically bc masculinity (courage, independent thinking) = bad to people in power so they publish this kind of crap all day every day

taurawah 4y ago
weird thing to suggest that courage and independent thinking are masculine traits
- nyrikki 4y ago
  “The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready is he to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause.” - Eric Hoffer The True Believer
- gordian-mind 4y ago
  Is it wrong or is it true? What's weird is your choice of words.
  - nyrikki 4y ago
    Claims about masculinity are often defined in opposition to ideas about femininity. The claim that woman cannot be courageous or independent thinkers is wrong. And as for societal ideals, specifically in response to a post showing that the concept of being a leader through aggression is also wrong. Aggression is often a response to fear. Aggression is a secondary emotion, typically a response to pain or fear. I personally view aggressive behavior and the attempt to gain status through aggression as a reason to pity someone far more than it ever makes me respect them. If aggression is your primary method of gaining status you are not courageous, you are weak and lashing out. I pity those people because they tend to undervalued their own merits and instead of having the courage to lead by example or to be confident in their positions they have to resort to methods ranging from name calling to physical violence. A true leader doesn't need to resort to unrestrained fear based responses to gain or maintain status. By definition those who have to resort to aggression are weak and full of self doubt. Actions based on fear are not the actions of confident individuals but the actions of cowards resorting to letting fear drive their lives. Which is exactly why the original studies found 'alpha' behaviors in stressed populations. If you read the above papers you will find that in wolves, submission for the betterment of the pack takes much more courage than aggression. Incels tend to like the 'alpha' concept because it is justification for not stepping up and accepting that they have caused many of their own problems. It is only viewed as 'courage' to other individuals with low self worth. If you truly believe that aggression is courageous I sincerely suggest you work on looking at the examples of truly courageous people and not seeking the approval of low esteem individuals who make other low self esteem individuals feel better by idealizing fear based outbursts. Bullies are pitiful creatures who have to resort victimizing others to feel better about themselves. Typically people who yield to bullies don't respect them and those who aren't filled with self doubt simply pity them. Aggression for personal gain is a sign of weakness and doesn't relate to the concepts you mentioned.
  - jccalhoun 4y ago
    Do you have any evidence you can provide that it is true?
    - gordian-mind 4y ago
      If it was true, would it be weird to mention it?
YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
I'm female and I'm courageous and an independent thinker. The question is always: what does it take to prove it, to those who think those traits mean "masculinity" and therefore I can't possibly have them.
- gordian-mind 4y ago
  If I tell you "men are stronger than women", do you think that showing me a strong woman will invalidate my claim?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
    I'm sorry, are we talking about physical strength or courage and independent thinking? I'm confused.
    - gordian-mind 4y ago
      Wait, who's talking about what? Who are you?

nyrikki 4y ago

No multiple sources have explained that 'alpha' implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. Here is another. https://wolf.org/headlines/44265/ https://wolf.org/headlines/44265/ You are offering a false dichotomy and suggesting that gaining dominance through force or challenge is the only path to authority. Also a 'dominance hierarchy' can exist without the need for contest or battle. If you have worked around dogs outside of the silly 'alpha' concept you will notice that dominant members can impact the behaviors of other members with a simple look or by withholding attention and positive reinforcement. This is why real professional dog training for working dogs is almost exclusively positive reinforcement these days. Fear and intimidation is a rather poor training method for domestic dogs. Of course if you want to discard the original meaning of 'alpha' as presented by the people who originally coined the term for your own personal definition no evidence they offer that their previous research was wrong will fit you expectations. 'Alpha' was specifically coined to describe their misunderstanding of behavior at the time and doesn't simply imply 'first' in their context. Dominance and aggression are separate behaviors that may have intersection but gaining status through aggression tends to result in unstable relationships and is incredibly expensive to males in species where it is a predominant method of gaining status. Wolves rarely gain status within their group through aggression, thus labeling the primary breeding pairs as 'alpha' by default is scientifically incorrect. Most of the status of the breeding pair was gained through breeding and not aggression and in reality true aggression is simply not typically tolerated by the dominant members of the pack.

torstenvl 4y ago
> No multiple sources have explained that 'alpha' implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. Uhhhh... > The concept of the alpha wolf is well ingrained in the popular wolf literature, at least partly because of my book “The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species,”... You are directly contradicting the author you're claiming to support. This isn't an episode of Dr. Who. Time travel does not exist. Two things cannot cause one another over the course of a fifty year span. Either the concept of "alpha wolf" arose from Mech's work (in which case it didn't imply anything because it was a wholly new term), or it didn't (in which case it wasn't his idea and him repudiating it doesn't carry the weight you think it does).