5 ms·

Putting aside the quality of schools: how is this possible in the era of smartphones? I always thought that smartphones will put the final end to illiteracy, at

Putting aside the quality of schools: how is this possible in the era of smartphones? I always thought that smartphones will put the final end to illiteracy, at least because of texting.

dtech 4y ago
You don't really need real reading skills to use TikTok, Youtube, call or send voice messages.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
toby- 4y ago
Unless you're texting friends who, themselves, can barely read and write... Plus, texting has always featured slang, abbreviations, lack of punctuation, shortened spelling, etc. Not the best to learn from, perhaps.
jjulius 4y ago
I am the only person I know who texts in full, complete sentences and statements, without abbreviating anything. I use all punctuation correctly, as much as I can. It's not a conscious thing, it's just what I do. I know of almost nobody else who does this. Shorthand is encouraged, acronyms abound, nobody actually gives a shit if you misspell something, punctuation is thrown to the wind with reckless abandon. I don't see how texting could put an end to illiteracy. If anything, it promotes it.
- Aperocky 4y ago
  Seems like they can read your message just fine and type back a reply that you can understand. Literacy attained.
  - quantified 4y ago
    Literacy sufficient to understand the terms of an apartment lease, a car loan, a court order? Agreed that reading and writing are two different skills.
    - jjulius 4y ago
      Thank you for this clarification. :)
- ALittleLight 4y ago
  I would stop being friends with someone if they texted like this. The entirety of my friends, coworkers (when I was working), and family write properly while texting.
  - blangk 4y ago
    Seems like a bit of an overreaction
  - jjulius 4y ago
    I never said I found anything inherently wrong with it, I just observed a difference between myself and others. I imagine you'd be cutting a lot of people out of your life over something so innocuous.
- Someone 4y ago
  It seems they can read and write, but not the English you’re familiar with. Of course, the question is whether that language is as expressive as ‘old English’. I would guess it is simpler, but on the other hand, I know almost nothing of that language, and I know for sure it has features I can’t read, such as most expressions made up of multiple emoticons
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- c7b 4y ago
  Language is fluid and constantly evolving. Literacy[0] shouldn't mean whether you follow some set of punctuation rules at all times, but whether you can infer the meaning and intent of messages, and whether you can compose messages that allow recipients to do the same, both without much effort or discomfort on all sides. Acronyms and punctuation are just tools to this end. If others 'get' what you're trying to say and consider it appropriate language in different contexts relevant to your life (you want the ability to use different language in professional vs personal settings, to actually use established grammatical rules in formal settings,...), then I'd say you're literate. Using emojis, acronyms or writing things like 'Hey u coming?' in appropriate settings doesn't negate that imho. Acronyms are in fact extremely common in professional settings too, and emojis increasingly so, at least in my experience. Slightly provocative question, given what you've said ("without abbreviating anything"), would you actually spell out the acronym RSVP in a formal invitation? It's very common eg in Britain, it's definitely considered good form, and spelling it out would just cause confusion since it's actually a French term that most people probably wouldn't recognize (répondez, s'il vous plaît). What about i.e. (ita est)? E.g. (exemplum gratum, although some might argue it can also stand for example given)? You might say you just avoid those terms, which is possible, but I have a suspicion that you're just fooling yourself. Since you're on this site, I might also ask whether you always spell out the Domain Name System (DNS) and similar terms? If you did, you'd actually make your messages less understandable to most audiences, detracting from your literacy I'd argue. [0] My opinion here, I'm not a linguist, so if this clashes with established definitions of literacy, my apologies. Edit: I actually had a look, and of course you are fooling yourself. According to your comment history, you actually use abbreviations all the time, including ones that are unknown to me (ITAD company, SEE), making whatever point you were trying to make lost on me without research effort: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35273712#35276691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35273712#35276691
  - jjulius 4y ago
    I actually agree with you on the first point, I was leaning more towards functional literacy. In the sense that yes, we're literate because we can understand what someone means when they say, "sry my b", but I don't understand how OP can expect the widespread adoption of that style of communication to increase one's functionally literate understanding of, say, as mentioned elsewhere in this chain, a court order, a lease you sign with your landlord, or what is actually being said in a news article. That functional bit is, in point of fact, more of what the article is about. Edit: You took my comment too literally and missed the overall point. I didn't even intend to judge those who don't text like I do, hence my highlighting that it's not a conscious effort on my part. And, yes, I suppose that quite common acronyms are fine - I had hoped that it was obvious that I was referring to less common acronyms, but perhaps failed there (and still may be with this comment, c'est la vie). But thanks for kinda painting me like a grammar snob? Edit 2: Some other words for clarification, since I guess I'd better be extra careful...
- jemmyw 4y ago
  > I don't see how texting could put an end to illiteracy. If anything, it promotes it. Just a guess, people used to be able to get by with a very basic level of literacy, i.e. label recognition. My cousin was this way when he finished school ~20 years ago. Now you can't get by like that very easily because text based communication is so prevalent. If you have friends they'll be texting you, so you're pretty much forced into a learning situation for sociality, whereas in the past that was only happening at the speech level. Re the shorthand stuff, (a) you probably just didn't realise how illiterate people were in the past because they couldn't write anything for you to read, so it's a genuine step up. (b) I actually encounter that shorthand less now, and more from adults who grew up with expensive and limited SMS.
  - t-3 4y ago
    Dictation is very common. Emoji heiroglyphics and phonetic spellings as well.
standardUser 4y ago
The headline is misleading. The article says almost half "can’t read for their age". It's not saying they are illiterate. It's an inflammatory headline as written and the language does not come from the article. Also - genuine question for anyone with a clue - what percent of high school age kids do you think have smartphones in, say, East Oakland?
- tharne 4y ago
  > Also - genuine question for anyone with a clue - what percent of high school age kids do you think have smartphones in, say, East Oakland? Answer: Effectively all of them. Source: worked in inner city schools for a bit in areas at least as poor as East Oakland.
  - alephnerd 4y ago
    Can confirm - Mom works with inner city youth and bussed children with a number of East Bay school districts
  - lo_zamoyski 4y ago
    Indeed. I sometimes suspect that those who've never spent any appreciable time around or with the lower classes fall back on Dickensian notions of the pauper. They might be surprised by their conspicuous spending habits and preferences devoted to the acquisition latest gadgets, flashiest sneakers, and gaudiest logo-emblazoned clothing. Failing to wear and own such things because, for example, your family is saving for or spending on education or something actually worth spending money on, is a faux pas.
    - trogdor 4y ago
      https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w13392/w13392.pdf https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w13392/w133...
- mc32 4y ago
  Phones are the new high-top sneakers. HS teens would rather be caught with pooped pants than not have a smartphone --even if not the latest and greatest.
tharne 4y ago
I think the article is probably referring to functional illiteracy, e.g. someone who can understand, "Be there in 5" on their smartphone but can't read a news article and summarize the main point.
joecool1029 4y ago
> how is this possible in the era of smartphones? communicate through emoji and stickers?
koolba 4y ago
> how is this possible in the era of smartphones? If the only reading is app button labels, slang tweet burns, or media approved slogans of the week, why would you expect them to develop any meaningful vocabulary?
caminante 4y ago
Fair question. The nuance is that most can read, but not "at their age level" Quote: > In 2021, 47% of Black students in SFUSD that are high school juniors don’t even come close to meeting English-language proficiency. [...] That means for every one of two Black students leaving San Francisco high schools they can’t read for their age.
- ashwagary 4y ago
  >The nuance is that most can read, but not "at their age level" I wonder what percentage are learning English as a 2nd language. The problem I see with using "black" as a descriptor is there are recent African immigrants, 1+ gen. African immigrants, Afro latinos, descendants of enslaved Americans, etc... put under one umbrella. How can anyone pinpoint why a % of "black" students have reading issues at similar rates to hispanic students when the statistics pool black people from vastly different backgrounds together?
  - caminante 4y ago
    The author cites the pew study [0] that claims less than 10% of the "US black population" is foreign born. I have no idea how things stack in the Bay Area, but I figure that answers your question and implies your nuance likely wouldn't change anything. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2015/04/09/a-rising-share-of-the-u-s-black-population-is-foreign-born/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2015/04/09/a-risin...
    - ashwagary 4y ago
      >The author cites the pew study [0] that claims less than 10% of the "US black population" is foreign born. Yes, when I saw that it was clear to me that being "foreign born" said very little about the population. For example, English can still be a 2nd or 3rd language for recent immigrants with US born children, especially in California and Texas. >I figure that answers your question and implies your nuance likely wouldn't change anything. I disagree, immigrants are most likely unevenly distributed.
w______roy 4y ago
Think about the vocabulary you use shooting the shit with your friends. It's not that wide of a vocabulary. And there are plenty of abbreviations/shorthand in texting that condense more complex concepts/feelings/ideas into a few characters. Plus, more kids than ever just facetime one another these days rather than text. Literacy is more than just being able to decipher characters into words and ideas, it's being able to read several paragraphs in a row and comprehend what they amount to in intellectual or narrative terms.
swalling 4y ago
idk lowkey seems like when u txt with yr besties its not hella similar to Moby Dick or a college essay thass on some fire Noam Chomsky game u feel me?
- toby- 4y ago
  frfr ong (Anecdotally, almost everyone I know who texts like this is very well educated and absolutely capable of writing in full, grammatical sentences — they just choose not to in these situations.)
- Gigachad 4y ago
  Sheeeesh, No cap fr
morkalork 4y ago
I know some people who the government considers illiterate that manage to post on FB, they just don't really use punctuation or proper grammar. Its painful to read and gives me second hand embarrassment but they don't even care.

Putting aside the quality of schools: how is this possible in the era of smartphones? I always thought that smartphones will put the final end to illiteracy, at least because of texting.

dtech 4y ago

You don't really need real reading skills to use TikTok, Youtube, call or send voice messages.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

toby- 4y ago

Unless you're texting friends who, themselves, can barely read and write... Plus, texting has always featured slang, abbreviations, lack of punctuation, shortened spelling, etc. Not the best to learn from, perhaps.

jjulius 4y ago

I am the only person I know who texts in full, complete sentences and statements, without abbreviating anything. I use all punctuation correctly, as much as I can. It's not a conscious thing, it's just what I do. I know of almost nobody else who does this. Shorthand is encouraged, acronyms abound, nobody actually gives a shit if you misspell something, punctuation is thrown to the wind with reckless abandon. I don't see how texting could put an end to illiteracy. If anything, it promotes it.

Aperocky 4y ago
Seems like they can read your message just fine and type back a reply that you can understand. Literacy attained.
- quantified 4y ago
  Literacy sufficient to understand the terms of an apartment lease, a car loan, a court order? Agreed that reading and writing are two different skills.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    Thank you for this clarification. :)
ALittleLight 4y ago
I would stop being friends with someone if they texted like this. The entirety of my friends, coworkers (when I was working), and family write properly while texting.
- blangk 4y ago
  Seems like a bit of an overreaction
- jjulius 4y ago
  I never said I found anything inherently wrong with it, I just observed a difference between myself and others. I imagine you'd be cutting a lot of people out of your life over something so innocuous.
Someone 4y ago
It seems they can read and write, but not the English you’re familiar with. Of course, the question is whether that language is as expressive as ‘old English’. I would guess it is simpler, but on the other hand, I know almost nothing of that language, and I know for sure it has features I can’t read, such as most expressions made up of multiple emoticons
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
c7b 4y ago
Language is fluid and constantly evolving. Literacy[0] shouldn't mean whether you follow some set of punctuation rules at all times, but whether you can infer the meaning and intent of messages, and whether you can compose messages that allow recipients to do the same, both without much effort or discomfort on all sides. Acronyms and punctuation are just tools to this end. If others 'get' what you're trying to say and consider it appropriate language in different contexts relevant to your life (you want the ability to use different language in professional vs personal settings, to actually use established grammatical rules in formal settings,...), then I'd say you're literate. Using emojis, acronyms or writing things like 'Hey u coming?' in appropriate settings doesn't negate that imho. Acronyms are in fact extremely common in professional settings too, and emojis increasingly so, at least in my experience. Slightly provocative question, given what you've said ("without abbreviating anything"), would you actually spell out the acronym RSVP in a formal invitation? It's very common eg in Britain, it's definitely considered good form, and spelling it out would just cause confusion since it's actually a French term that most people probably wouldn't recognize (répondez, s'il vous plaît). What about i.e. (ita est)? E.g. (exemplum gratum, although some might argue it can also stand for example given)? You might say you just avoid those terms, which is possible, but I have a suspicion that you're just fooling yourself. Since you're on this site, I might also ask whether you always spell out the Domain Name System (DNS) and similar terms? If you did, you'd actually make your messages less understandable to most audiences, detracting from your literacy I'd argue. [0] My opinion here, I'm not a linguist, so if this clashes with established definitions of literacy, my apologies. Edit: I actually had a look, and of course you are fooling yourself. According to your comment history, you actually use abbreviations all the time, including ones that are unknown to me (ITAD company, SEE), making whatever point you were trying to make lost on me without research effort: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35273712#35276691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35273712#35276691
- jjulius 4y ago
  I actually agree with you on the first point, I was leaning more towards functional literacy. In the sense that yes, we're literate because we can understand what someone means when they say, "sry my b", but I don't understand how OP can expect the widespread adoption of that style of communication to increase one's functionally literate understanding of, say, as mentioned elsewhere in this chain, a court order, a lease you sign with your landlord, or what is actually being said in a news article. That functional bit is, in point of fact, more of what the article is about. Edit: You took my comment too literally and missed the overall point. I didn't even intend to judge those who don't text like I do, hence my highlighting that it's not a conscious effort on my part. And, yes, I suppose that quite common acronyms are fine - I had hoped that it was obvious that I was referring to less common acronyms, but perhaps failed there (and still may be with this comment, c'est la vie). But thanks for kinda painting me like a grammar snob? Edit 2: Some other words for clarification, since I guess I'd better be extra careful...
jemmyw 4y ago
> I don't see how texting could put an end to illiteracy. If anything, it promotes it. Just a guess, people used to be able to get by with a very basic level of literacy, i.e. label recognition. My cousin was this way when he finished school ~20 years ago. Now you can't get by like that very easily because text based communication is so prevalent. If you have friends they'll be texting you, so you're pretty much forced into a learning situation for sociality, whereas in the past that was only happening at the speech level. Re the shorthand stuff, (a) you probably just didn't realise how illiterate people were in the past because they couldn't write anything for you to read, so it's a genuine step up. (b) I actually encounter that shorthand less now, and more from adults who grew up with expensive and limited SMS.
- t-3 4y ago
  Dictation is very common. Emoji heiroglyphics and phonetic spellings as well.

standardUser 4y ago

The headline is misleading. The article says almost half "can’t read for their age". It's not saying they are illiterate. It's an inflammatory headline as written and the language does not come from the article. Also - genuine question for anyone with a clue - what percent of high school age kids do you think have smartphones in, say, East Oakland?

tharne 4y ago
> Also - genuine question for anyone with a clue - what percent of high school age kids do you think have smartphones in, say, East Oakland? Answer: Effectively all of them. Source: worked in inner city schools for a bit in areas at least as poor as East Oakland.
- alephnerd 4y ago
  Can confirm - Mom works with inner city youth and bussed children with a number of East Bay school districts
- lo_zamoyski 4y ago
  Indeed. I sometimes suspect that those who've never spent any appreciable time around or with the lower classes fall back on Dickensian notions of the pauper. They might be surprised by their conspicuous spending habits and preferences devoted to the acquisition latest gadgets, flashiest sneakers, and gaudiest logo-emblazoned clothing. Failing to wear and own such things because, for example, your family is saving for or spending on education or something actually worth spending money on, is a faux pas.
  - trogdor 4y ago
    https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w13392/w13392.pdf https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w13392/w133...
mc32 4y ago
Phones are the new high-top sneakers. HS teens would rather be caught with pooped pants than not have a smartphone --even if not the latest and greatest.

tharne 4y ago

I think the article is probably referring to functional illiteracy, e.g. someone who can understand, "Be there in 5" on their smartphone but can't read a news article and summarize the main point.

joecool1029 4y ago

> how is this possible in the era of smartphones? communicate through emoji and stickers?

koolba 4y ago

> how is this possible in the era of smartphones? If the only reading is app button labels, slang tweet burns, or media approved slogans of the week, why would you expect them to develop any meaningful vocabulary?

caminante 4y ago

Fair question. The nuance is that most can read, but not "at their age level" Quote: > In 2021, 47% of Black students in SFUSD that are high school juniors don’t even come close to meeting English-language proficiency. [...] That means for every one of two Black students leaving San Francisco high schools they can’t read for their age.

ashwagary 4y ago
>The nuance is that most can read, but not "at their age level" I wonder what percentage are learning English as a 2nd language. The problem I see with using "black" as a descriptor is there are recent African immigrants, 1+ gen. African immigrants, Afro latinos, descendants of enslaved Americans, etc... put under one umbrella. How can anyone pinpoint why a % of "black" students have reading issues at similar rates to hispanic students when the statistics pool black people from vastly different backgrounds together?
- caminante 4y ago
  The author cites the pew study [0] that claims less than 10% of the "US black population" is foreign born. I have no idea how things stack in the Bay Area, but I figure that answers your question and implies your nuance likely wouldn't change anything. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2015/04/09/a-rising-share-of-the-u-s-black-population-is-foreign-born/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2015/04/09/a-risin...
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    >The author cites the pew study [0] that claims less than 10% of the "US black population" is foreign born. Yes, when I saw that it was clear to me that being "foreign born" said very little about the population. For example, English can still be a 2nd or 3rd language for recent immigrants with US born children, especially in California and Texas. >I figure that answers your question and implies your nuance likely wouldn't change anything. I disagree, immigrants are most likely unevenly distributed.

w______roy 4y ago

Think about the vocabulary you use shooting the shit with your friends. It's not that wide of a vocabulary. And there are plenty of abbreviations/shorthand in texting that condense more complex concepts/feelings/ideas into a few characters. Plus, more kids than ever just facetime one another these days rather than text. Literacy is more than just being able to decipher characters into words and ideas, it's being able to read several paragraphs in a row and comprehend what they amount to in intellectual or narrative terms.

swalling 4y ago

idk lowkey seems like when u txt with yr besties its not hella similar to Moby Dick or a college essay thass on some fire Noam Chomsky game u feel me?

toby- 4y ago
frfr ong (Anecdotally, almost everyone I know who texts like this is very well educated and absolutely capable of writing in full, grammatical sentences — they just choose not to in these situations.)
Gigachad 4y ago
Sheeeesh, No cap fr

morkalork 4y ago

I know some people who the government considers illiterate that manage to post on FB, they just don't really use punctuation or proper grammar. Its painful to read and gives me second hand embarrassment but they don't even care.