7 ms·

IQ is a real thing, finding a linear negative relationship between lead levels in children and IQ was the smoking gun to prove that lead was harmful.

bradleyjg 4y ago
I don’t claim it isn’t real. What I claim is that people like to throw around random made up facts involving IQ to make their arguments seem science-y and that they ought not to.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  I'll go on the record to say that IQ is as real as any other social construct like money, God, or nationality. Depending on your predilection that can range from worthless to "party of the fabric of reality itself."
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
    Does that assertion suppose to convey any information? It seems you can put any random nouns into your comparison and the meaning won’t change. > as any other social construct like cheese, boat races or reading > as any other social construct like HackerNews, children or milk > as any other social construct like cars, transgenderism or pencils > as any other social construct like social, construct or like
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      > Does that assertion suppose to convey any information? Yes, I'm assuming you're familiar with the topic.
      - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
        I am not familiar enough to understand what information you are trying to convey using that term. Can you confirm that IQ is a social construct in exactly the same way all other things I listed are social constructs?
        kelseyfrog 4y ago
        I'm using it in the same way as Berger and Luckmann.
        LudwigNagasena 4y ago
        Then it seems extremely disingenuous that you only mention money, God and nationality as if you have an axe to grind. Why not say that it is a social construct like the Global Warming, the Holocaust and gender dysphoria?
        kelseyfrog 4y ago
        I chose them because I know my audience. HN members on average hold views on these topics that are more apt to view as socially constructed than other topics. By focusing on these topics, we can explore why they might be socially constructed and why those reasons are necessary and sufficient. Once establishing that, we can examine IQ to see if they apply as well. Don't mistake me bringing them up as an endorsement or critique of them in and of themselves. Besides, bringing up global warning, the holocaust, and gender dysphoria will inevitably attract follow-ons who want to debate the validity of those topics. I'm not here to do that. What I want to establish is what the salient aspects you think constitute a social construct by using these topics as an example. If you want to switch to a different set, by all means, go ahead and choose them instead. I personally think it will be a less productive discussion, but I'm willing to play along.
        LudwigNagasena 4y ago
        > I chose them because I know my audience. I don't know what you mean by that, but to me it gives an impression of run-off-the-mill bashing of "fake" and "bad" things like gender, race, religion, capitalism, nationality that we should re-think and re-make where "social construct" is used as an ambiguous slur by someone who learned about it on Reddit or BuzzFeed. I guess I wasn't the intended audience of that comparison. > What I want to establish is what the salient aspects you think constitute a social construct by using these topics as an example. I usually interpret "a social construct" in a way that ranges from being a synonym for "a social contract" to a synonym for something like Kantian appearance (insofar as conception of any object in mind is partly influenced by social institutions) depending on context. But many people seem to make it extremely hard to understand what they mean exactly. So providing examples helps understand what is being asserted. If someone starts talking that X is a social construct just like all that other bad stuff, asking them whether good stuff is a social construct helps ensure that they aren't engaged in agenda-posting or, at least, have far less wiggle room for pushing their rhetoric.
  - HyperSane 4y ago
    IQ isn't a social construct. It is a actual quantitative measure of how well the brain can process information. This is why lead blood concentration causes a predictable decrease in IQ.
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      You can measure how much money you have in your bank account and money is a social construct. Spending money leads to having measurably less money. The two aren't mutually exclusive. You might be confusing "social construct" with fake. That's not at all what I'm saying.
      - HyperSane 4y ago
        IQ isn't a social construct because intelligence is not a social construct. A social construct is something that is created by everyone agreeing that it is real, like money. Human intelligence is a function of how the human brain works and is NOT a social construct.
        kelseyfrog 4y ago
        It's funny arguing with someone who has reified the concept so thoroughly that dereification is unthinkable. First off I'm setting aside the argument that intelligence is constructed or not. Ssecondly, social ontologists would say that you're arguing from grounding. You're arguing that because one thing is grounded in the other and the latter is real that the former is real as well. It also sounds like this is taken as axiomatic, to which I simply say, prove that's how grounding works.
        HyperSane 4y ago
        Are you willing to argue that height and weight are "social constructs" because IQ is as much a social construct as they are.
        LudwigNagasena 4y ago
        Everything is a social construct. It is just a vapid meaningless statement sociologists use to legitimize their expertise and colonize other fields of inquiry that were traditionally the domains of philosophers and scientists. The whole thing is just repackaged Marxist analysis of everything as a social relation.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> finding a linear negative relationship between lead levels in children and IQ was the smoking gun to prove that lead was harmful. Lead toxicity was identified more than 2000 years before the first IQ test, and was rather extensively studied during the Renaissance. The combination of blood lead and IQ tests was important in quantifying the existence and impacts of particular kinds and levels of environmental exposure that had been assumed to be forms of levels that would not be hazardous, but it was not important to identifying lead as a toxin.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  I guess I should have said "proving leaded gasoline and paint" was harmful.

bradleyjg 4y ago

I don’t claim it isn’t real. What I claim is that people like to throw around random made up facts involving IQ to make their arguments seem science-y and that they ought not to.

kelseyfrog 4y ago
I'll go on the record to say that IQ is as real as any other social construct like money, God, or nationality. Depending on your predilection that can range from worthless to "party of the fabric of reality itself."
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  Does that assertion suppose to convey any information? It seems you can put any random nouns into your comparison and the meaning won’t change. > as any other social construct like cheese, boat races or reading > as any other social construct like HackerNews, children or milk > as any other social construct like cars, transgenderism or pencils > as any other social construct like social, construct or like
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    > Does that assertion suppose to convey any information? Yes, I'm assuming you're familiar with the topic.
    - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
      I am not familiar enough to understand what information you are trying to convey using that term. Can you confirm that IQ is a social construct in exactly the same way all other things I listed are social constructs?
      - kelseyfrog 4y ago
        I'm using it in the same way as Berger and Luckmann.
        LudwigNagasena 4y ago
        Then it seems extremely disingenuous that you only mention money, God and nationality as if you have an axe to grind. Why not say that it is a social construct like the Global Warming, the Holocaust and gender dysphoria?
        kelseyfrog 4y ago
        I chose them because I know my audience. HN members on average hold views on these topics that are more apt to view as socially constructed than other topics. By focusing on these topics, we can explore why they might be socially constructed and why those reasons are necessary and sufficient. Once establishing that, we can examine IQ to see if they apply as well. Don't mistake me bringing them up as an endorsement or critique of them in and of themselves. Besides, bringing up global warning, the holocaust, and gender dysphoria will inevitably attract follow-ons who want to debate the validity of those topics. I'm not here to do that. What I want to establish is what the salient aspects you think constitute a social construct by using these topics as an example. If you want to switch to a different set, by all means, go ahead and choose them instead. I personally think it will be a less productive discussion, but I'm willing to play along.
        LudwigNagasena 4y ago
        > I chose them because I know my audience. I don't know what you mean by that, but to me it gives an impression of run-off-the-mill bashing of "fake" and "bad" things like gender, race, religion, capitalism, nationality that we should re-think and re-make where "social construct" is used as an ambiguous slur by someone who learned about it on Reddit or BuzzFeed. I guess I wasn't the intended audience of that comparison. > What I want to establish is what the salient aspects you think constitute a social construct by using these topics as an example. I usually interpret "a social construct" in a way that ranges from being a synonym for "a social contract" to a synonym for something like Kantian appearance (insofar as conception of any object in mind is partly influenced by social institutions) depending on context. But many people seem to make it extremely hard to understand what they mean exactly. So providing examples helps understand what is being asserted. If someone starts talking that X is a social construct just like all that other bad stuff, asking them whether good stuff is a social construct helps ensure that they aren't engaged in agenda-posting or, at least, have far less wiggle room for pushing their rhetoric.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  IQ isn't a social construct. It is a actual quantitative measure of how well the brain can process information. This is why lead blood concentration causes a predictable decrease in IQ.
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    You can measure how much money you have in your bank account and money is a social construct. Spending money leads to having measurably less money. The two aren't mutually exclusive. You might be confusing "social construct" with fake. That's not at all what I'm saying.
    - HyperSane 4y ago
      IQ isn't a social construct because intelligence is not a social construct. A social construct is something that is created by everyone agreeing that it is real, like money. Human intelligence is a function of how the human brain works and is NOT a social construct.
      - kelseyfrog 4y ago
        It's funny arguing with someone who has reified the concept so thoroughly that dereification is unthinkable. First off I'm setting aside the argument that intelligence is constructed or not. Ssecondly, social ontologists would say that you're arguing from grounding. You're arguing that because one thing is grounded in the other and the latter is real that the former is real as well. It also sounds like this is taken as axiomatic, to which I simply say, prove that's how grounding works.
        HyperSane 4y ago
        Are you willing to argue that height and weight are "social constructs" because IQ is as much a social construct as they are.
      - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
        Everything is a social construct. It is just a vapid meaningless statement sociologists use to legitimize their expertise and colonize other fields of inquiry that were traditionally the domains of philosophers and scientists. The whole thing is just repackaged Marxist analysis of everything as a social relation.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> finding a linear negative relationship between lead levels in children and IQ was the smoking gun to prove that lead was harmful. Lead toxicity was identified more than 2000 years before the first IQ test, and was rather extensively studied during the Renaissance. The combination of blood lead and IQ tests was important in quantifying the existence and impacts of particular kinds and levels of environmental exposure that had been assumed to be forms of levels that would not be hazardous, but it was not important to identifying lead as a toxin.

HyperSane 4y ago
I guess I should have said "proving leaded gasoline and paint" was harmful.