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I’m not going to defend that commencement speech but I want to push back on your thesis. Why should Harvard be reduced to a job training program for McKinsey o

I’m not going to defend that commencement speech but I want to push back on your thesis. Why should Harvard be reduced to a job training program for McKinsey or Goldman? Why is it bizarre and silly for people to pursue happiness over money? From a societal standpoint, I believe we owe much to people who did just that. Scientists and mathematicians, yes, but also writers and actors and poets and musicians. Where would we be, as a society, if everyone focused 100% on the hustle, the grind, the drive to be a founder or a lawyer or a quant? We’d be a morally and culturally bankrupt desolation. And our schools would be 100% complicit.

occamrazor 4y ago
While I agree that culture and education are not just means to the end of getting a lucrative job, I think that GP’s point is that it is easier for a white American, _even if they only care about money_, to appear as if they cared about other values. For many people grown and socialized in some Asian cultures (including Japanese, Korean and Chinese), a good job in a prestigious company is considered a worthwhile objective, not something that needs to be disguised.
- chongli 4y ago
  For many people grown and socialized in some Asian cultures (including Japanese, Korean and Chinese), a good job in a prestigious company is considered a worthwhile objective, not something that needs to be disguised. I think that's more a trait of emigrant subcultures than it is a trait of those cultures as a whole. Parents who take big personal, financial, and social risks to move to another country tend to want to protect their investment. When it comes to their children's choice of career, they can get very offended if the child chooses to pursue theatre or fine arts instead of medicine or law. If, on the other hand, you travel to Japan, Korea, or China (or indeed India, Thailand, Vietnam, or any other country in Asia where people emigrate to come to the US) and actually visit people living in the countryside, in small towns and farming villages, you'll see a radically different picture. People practicing their culture and living a traditional way of life. The difficulty of immigration and setting down roots in a new place, far from the support of extended family social networks, serves as a natural (and artificial, due to various immigration laws) barrier which tends to select for families where the parents have this sort of drive.
  - occamrazor 4y ago
    I have met manu Japanese, and a few Chinese, working for Japanese (resp. Chinese) financial companies. All of them were proud of the position they reached, even those that were not too happy about the working conditions (very long hours, slow career progression) For Korea I only have indirect information.
    - chongli 4y ago
      I dated a Chinese international student for 2 years. Her parents put a ton of pressure on her, academically. They would not even allow her to study chemistry (her passion in high school), so she ended up studying math. They are practically forcing her to go to grad school as well. She is not happy with this situation, to say the least. Now she wants to study cognitive science. They are not happy about it but they can't do anything because they're in China and she's in North America. I've encouraged her to study what she wants. I think there are countless other Asian students in the same boat. I think part of the reason Harvard is doing what they're doing is to push back on it. Harvard wants independent thinkers who are trying to make a difference in the world, not ladder-climbers (reluctant or otherwise) being pushed by overzealous parents.
      - selimthegrim 4y ago
        Given the outlook for postgraduate chemistry careers I’ve got to take her parents’ side on this one
        melagonster 4y ago
        why, is not chemistry more utility than mathematics in industry?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        selimthegrim 4y ago
yibg 4y ago
For one, kids of poor families can’t really afford to go to university to peruse happiness over money. They don’t want to become poets and musicians because they have a family to support.
- chongli 4y ago
  If you’re a poor kid and you get into Harvard you get a full ride. Furthermore, even a degree in poetry and literature from Harvard will be your ticket to the middle class. For Harvard students there’s really no excuse not to study whatever you’re most passionate about.
  - yibg 4y ago
    I don’t know anything about you but this sounds out of touch. When you are coming from a poor family you look to maximum financial earnings, not pursue your passions. Financial security is the top priority and you don’t achieve that with a degree in poetry. You study STEM.

occamrazor 4y ago

While I agree that culture and education are not just means to the end of getting a lucrative job, I think that GP’s point is that it is easier for a white American, _even if they only care about money_, to appear as if they cared about other values. For many people grown and socialized in some Asian cultures (including Japanese, Korean and Chinese), a good job in a prestigious company is considered a worthwhile objective, not something that needs to be disguised.

chongli 4y ago
For many people grown and socialized in some Asian cultures (including Japanese, Korean and Chinese), a good job in a prestigious company is considered a worthwhile objective, not something that needs to be disguised. I think that's more a trait of emigrant subcultures than it is a trait of those cultures as a whole. Parents who take big personal, financial, and social risks to move to another country tend to want to protect their investment. When it comes to their children's choice of career, they can get very offended if the child chooses to pursue theatre or fine arts instead of medicine or law. If, on the other hand, you travel to Japan, Korea, or China (or indeed India, Thailand, Vietnam, or any other country in Asia where people emigrate to come to the US) and actually visit people living in the countryside, in small towns and farming villages, you'll see a radically different picture. People practicing their culture and living a traditional way of life. The difficulty of immigration and setting down roots in a new place, far from the support of extended family social networks, serves as a natural (and artificial, due to various immigration laws) barrier which tends to select for families where the parents have this sort of drive.
- occamrazor 4y ago
  I have met manu Japanese, and a few Chinese, working for Japanese (resp. Chinese) financial companies. All of them were proud of the position they reached, even those that were not too happy about the working conditions (very long hours, slow career progression) For Korea I only have indirect information.
  - chongli 4y ago
    I dated a Chinese international student for 2 years. Her parents put a ton of pressure on her, academically. They would not even allow her to study chemistry (her passion in high school), so she ended up studying math. They are practically forcing her to go to grad school as well. She is not happy with this situation, to say the least. Now she wants to study cognitive science. They are not happy about it but they can't do anything because they're in China and she's in North America. I've encouraged her to study what she wants. I think there are countless other Asian students in the same boat. I think part of the reason Harvard is doing what they're doing is to push back on it. Harvard wants independent thinkers who are trying to make a difference in the world, not ladder-climbers (reluctant or otherwise) being pushed by overzealous parents.
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      Given the outlook for postgraduate chemistry careers I’ve got to take her parents’ side on this one
      - melagonster 4y ago
        why, is not chemistry more utility than mathematics in industry?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        selimthegrim 4y ago

yibg 4y ago

For one, kids of poor families can’t really afford to go to university to peruse happiness over money. They don’t want to become poets and musicians because they have a family to support.

chongli 4y ago
If you’re a poor kid and you get into Harvard you get a full ride. Furthermore, even a degree in poetry and literature from Harvard will be your ticket to the middle class. For Harvard students there’s really no excuse not to study whatever you’re most passionate about.
- yibg 4y ago
  I don’t know anything about you but this sounds out of touch. When you are coming from a poor family you look to maximum financial earnings, not pursue your passions. Financial security is the top priority and you don’t achieve that with a degree in poetry. You study STEM.