4 ms·

I'd love to see a study that tried to estimate to that extent absurd, invasive, and overly protective nannie policies cause people to choose to not have childre

by nullc 4y ago

I'd love to see a study that tried to estimate to that extent absurd, invasive, and overly protective nannie policies cause people to choose to not have children at all, contributing to declining birth rates? How many kids never get to exist at all because the government and other institutions have made it ever more obnoxious, even personally dangerous, to have one?

MiguelX413 4y ago
Any examples of such policies?
- nullc 4y ago
  Here is an article that discusses policy/fertility interactions in Canada https://thehub.ca/2023-03-14/counting-up-canadas-missing-kids-lyman-stone-on-why-half-of-women-are-falling-short-of-their-fertility-desires/ https://thehub.ca/2023-03-14/counting-up-canadas-missing-kid... But the examples I had in mind were parents getting prosecuted for letting their children outside unsupervised (several stories on HN in the last year or two), or examples in this thread like overzealous mandatory reporting in the original article or someones pediatric doctor becoming a problem after asking if they have guns in their home. Anecdotally I know people for whom concerns about invasive bureaucracies caused them to choose to delay or not have children, as well as people who relocated to places which they thought had better practices before doing so. Anecdotes don't count for much but I think it's not controversial that have many policies that are ineffective. Any policy that doesn't actually protect children but imposes a risk or cost on parents is probably a net reduction on the production of new adults, but maybe only a very small one.
BoxFour 4y ago
probably close to zero? There’s considerable debate over whether even China’s “One Child” policy had any direct effect or it just happened to coincide with a natural decline in birth rates that would’ve happened in China regardless. If it’s not even clear that an incredibly blunt government policy had that much of a direct effect, I’m not sure what research could possibly turn up for other nations.
- nullc 4y ago
  > whether even China’s “One Child” policy had any direct effect or it just happened to coincide with a natural decline in birth rates Surely you jest: https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20150917/b083fe95d63017645e980a.jpg https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/images/attachement/jpg/s... How does natural decline in birth rates explain the massive shift towards male children not experienced in other developing nations?
  - BoxFour 4y ago
    Birth rates are not the same thing as gender disparity, obviously.
  - AngryData 4y ago
    On the other hand, ive also heard a decent amount about native undocumented Chinese women from the same policies. A large number of undocumented native Chinese women popped into existence from those policies when they started reaching college age, and others into corporate business which we do know about. But how many more merely work local service jobs under the table, or got married and became a homemaker. Living in a more rural area with a more traditional lifestyle would already have incentivized women into those rolls, and then more would just want to stay hidden for fear of government appraisal, and there is no clear or obvious record of those people.

by nullc 4y ago

MiguelX413 4y ago

Any examples of such policies?

nullc 4y ago
Here is an article that discusses policy/fertility interactions in Canada https://thehub.ca/2023-03-14/counting-up-canadas-missing-kids-lyman-stone-on-why-half-of-women-are-falling-short-of-their-fertility-desires/ https://thehub.ca/2023-03-14/counting-up-canadas-missing-kid... But the examples I had in mind were parents getting prosecuted for letting their children outside unsupervised (several stories on HN in the last year or two), or examples in this thread like overzealous mandatory reporting in the original article or someones pediatric doctor becoming a problem after asking if they have guns in their home. Anecdotally I know people for whom concerns about invasive bureaucracies caused them to choose to delay or not have children, as well as people who relocated to places which they thought had better practices before doing so. Anecdotes don't count for much but I think it's not controversial that have many policies that are ineffective. Any policy that doesn't actually protect children but imposes a risk or cost on parents is probably a net reduction on the production of new adults, but maybe only a very small one.

BoxFour 4y ago

probably close to zero? There’s considerable debate over whether even China’s “One Child” policy had any direct effect or it just happened to coincide with a natural decline in birth rates that would’ve happened in China regardless. If it’s not even clear that an incredibly blunt government policy had that much of a direct effect, I’m not sure what research could possibly turn up for other nations.

nullc 4y ago
> whether even China’s “One Child” policy had any direct effect or it just happened to coincide with a natural decline in birth rates Surely you jest: https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20150917/b083fe95d63017645e980a.jpg https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/images/attachement/jpg/s... How does natural decline in birth rates explain the massive shift towards male children not experienced in other developing nations?
- BoxFour 4y ago
  Birth rates are not the same thing as gender disparity, obviously.
- AngryData 4y ago
  On the other hand, ive also heard a decent amount about native undocumented Chinese women from the same policies. A large number of undocumented native Chinese women popped into existence from those policies when they started reaching college age, and others into corporate business which we do know about. But how many more merely work local service jobs under the table, or got married and became a homemaker. Living in a more rural area with a more traditional lifestyle would already have incentivized women into those rolls, and then more would just want to stay hidden for fear of government appraisal, and there is no clear or obvious record of those people.