8 ms·

Ryan Dahl steps down

387 points by rhdoenges 15y ago

sunils34 15y ago
Congratulations Isaac! I worked with him at Kno. Node.js is in good hands. At his introduction to the company at Kno, all he said was: "My name is Isaac. I do javascript."
cleverjake 15y ago
Wow, what was the last language whose creator stepped down so quickly? Either way, Isaac has been a huge source of energy since the beginning, so im glad its going to him. Congrats all around
- pistoriusp 15y ago
  He didn't invent the language. Just a platform that runs a language.
- petercooper 15y ago
  Inane trivia alert.. Ryan was at the helm of Node.js 2009-2012. The original JRuby creator, Jan Arne Petersen, was at the helm 2001-2004.
seldo 15y ago
Congratulations izs :-)
mvanveen 15y ago
What does this mean for the Node community at large? I recently had the pleasure of checking out the NodeUp podcasts. A large portion of the first episode is dedicated to enforcing the notion that Node is a new language, and that it will take decades to catch up to the maturity that Python and Perl provide as platforms. Opening up a subprocess, or having an `os` module which works in Windows, for example, all seemed like daunting tasks that took other languages decades to perfect. While I'm sure Node can catch up quickly, partly because Javascript is fast to write, and partly because of the trailblazing that other languages have already done (among other reasons, I'm sure), I can't help but think that the loss of the original author's momentum behind the project will cause Node to suffer. Python has had Guido as the BDFL for over 20 years. Larry Wall is firmly entrenched in the church of Perl. Having one voice shepherding the direction of the language has had tremendous influence on both languages. I can't help but think that node.js is in a similar situation.
- techwraith 15y ago
  The difference is that node.js is just an environment for an already established language to run on. Ryan accomplished a lot of great stuff with node, and Isaac will do the same. JavaScript != Node.
- devongovett 15y ago
  node.js isn't a language.
  - pors 15y ago
    Linux isn't a language either, but they have Linus since forever.
    - IsaacSchlueter 15y ago
      To quote Mikeal Rogers, "The L in BDFL stands for LIFE, BRO!" Ryan will be a part of node forever. He's not gone. He just somehow talked me into doing a lot more work :)
- Animus7 15y ago
  > Having one voice shepherding the direction of the language has had tremendous influence on both languages. I can't help but think that node.js is in a similar situation. Not really. Node.js isn't a language that needs direction; ECMAScript is a separate standard with its own drivers. Node isn't even an implementation of a language, and V8 has its own community directing it. Node is a small core with pretty simple principles. The rest (the most important part, I'd argue) is a thriving third-party community, and that's something the loss of any single developer won't change.
- gcr 15y ago
  > Opening up a subprocess I'd take require('child_process') over python's subprocess any day.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
travisglines 15y ago
node.js is different. It's not a language, it's a small/extensible set of tools built on top of a solid language, and VM (V8) that are very mature. Node.js is in great hands with Isaac. Unlike many other web/network platforms node doesn't go around gobbling up everything into core. The community behind node is stronger and contributes more than I've seen before. Focusing on that third party module system experience is a good move to further grow the community, one that Isaac has been heading for a while. While many people will see the BDFL stepping down from a project as a bad sign, I think its the opposite. It has a dedicated and invested company behind it (Joyent), it's core doesn't try to do too much, it has legs of its own strong enough and it's community fault tolerant enough to grow quickly without him. Ryan spawned a project that grew a community that in the long run isn't reliant on him, a rare achievement of platform/language creators.
- rhdoenges 15y ago
  This change is a sign of Node's shift from improving the core to making modules work better. I see it that way, at least. Isaac is the author of npm after all.
  - baudehlo 15y ago
    Unfortunately the core is missing some significant features, whereas modules work pretty well already (though I can see room for doing pre-compiled binary modules like "PPM" does for Perl on Windows).
    - Animus7 15y ago
      Honest question: have you actually tried working with modules and dependencies in Node? It's better now, but it's still not pleasant and often installing a module starts with debugging. And what's the core missing, would you say? Personally, I thought the cluster stuff was already getting heavy.
      - baudehlo 15y ago
        > Honest question: have you actually tried working with modules and dependencies in Node? It's better now, but it's still not pleasant and often installing a module starts with debugging. Yes. And you're right, but then it's not often that much better than other languages. Personally I'd rather they get the core language finished first (though their concept of "finished" and mine seem to differ). > And what's the core missing, would you say? Personally, I thought the cluster stuff was already getting heavy. There's no way to lock a file (making file writes completely fragile). There's no way to seek() in a file. There's no way to open a file with O_EXCL set (meaning lockless file writing is impossible). There's no temp file functionality in core, and without O_EXCL the solutions available for this on npm are utterly broken. There's still major bugs in the Crypto routines (they take Strings instead of Buffers in various places)... Honestly I could go on.
emehrkay 15y ago
Pure conjecture, but didn't he start complaining/ranting about programming around the time Node.js for Windows was being developed? Maybe it burned him out.
- ambertch 15y ago
  Valid conjecture, but I think Ryan's always had that about him ("Camelcase... how cute")
- Encosia 15y ago
  Weren't those complaints about nix's complexity though? The complaints about things like the nix filesystem were specific enough that it's a stretch to point toward Windows.
alexhaefner 15y ago
Does anyone have a link that doesn't require me to login to see this?
- CrazedGeek 15y ago
  "Now that the rewrite on top of libuv is largely complete, I am ceding my position as gatekeeper to Isaac Schlueter. Our energy will now be largely focused over the next few months on improving the third party module system experience including a website for browsing modules, a new addon build system, and binary installations from npm. Isaac is in the unique position to bridge the gap between core and external modules to ensure a pleasant experience. After three years of working on Node, this frees me up to work on research projects. I am still an employee at Joyent and will advise from the sidelines but I won't be involved in the day-to-day bug fixes. Isaac has final say over what makes it into the releases. Appeals for new features, changes, and bug fixes should now be directed at him. "
- davvid 15y ago
  Does anyone have a link that doesn't require me to login to see this? This is a google groups quirk. If you are logged into a google account it will prompt you. If you sign out of your google accounts then you can read it without being logged in.
  - alexhaefner 15y ago
    I am not logged into my google account.
  - obtu 15y ago
    That happens when google groups detects a cookie indicating someone logged in to google at some point in the past.
antirez 15y ago
It makes a lot of sense to move forward at some point, but this time the timing is a bit suspicious: now that node.js started to have a lot of traction the lead developer stepping down is a bit unexpected. My guess is that there is some very exciting new adventure in the Ryan's future, or that sometimes three years are simply enough from a "feelings" point of view. Anyway best fishes for the future. EDIT: edited a bit in the form to make my thought more clear.
grandalf 15y ago
Is this equivalent to DHH stepping down?
- georgemcbay 15y ago
  Clearly not. If this situation were anything like DHH stepping down there would be a lot more swearing involved.
- asktell 15y ago
  No.
PLejeck 15y ago
I feel incredibly sorry for Isaac. First he fell into maintaining NPM, now he gets to deal with Node too. Best of luck to him, he's sure gonna need it!
forgotAgain 15y ago
negative: It would have been nice to see a 1.0 release before this happened. positive: Without the originator in place perhaps a more formal product infrastructure can be put in place by Joyent. I'm thinking in particular about a structure for the documentation of primary third party modules like Connect and Express. At present the readme's and examples on Git, Sencha, and ExpressJs are all done by the original module developers. They're good but like most documentation done by the original developers make too many assumptions about what readers know. I don't mean to be too critical but if users are going to Stackoverflow for answers then there is a problem.
- Animus7 15y ago
  > It would have been nice to see a 1.0 release before this happened. I dunno, a lot of big players are using node in production, and the back-compat's getting reasonable. Why does the number when you type -v matter? > Without the originator in place perhaps a more formal product infrastructure can be put in place by Joyent. I'm thinking in particular about a structure for the documentation of primary third party modules... I think that's the opposite of what Node needs. All of these third party modules came about precisely because there's no blockers or infrastructure to getting started with extending Node. The documentation for some of these modules could definitely be better, but I don't think having a central authority imposing upon the community is a good solution. > I don't mean to be too critical but if users are going to Stackoverflow for answers then there is a problem. The reason SO is so huge is precisely because users of pretty much anything will always have problems. Node is not, and never will be, an exception.
- mikeryan 15y ago
  At present the readme's and examples on Git, Sencha, and ExpressJs are all done by the original module developers I don't get this. Why would a core team be responsible for the documentation of 3rd party modules. Node has some serious documentation issues but I'm not sure how Ryan or Joyent is responsible for anything outside of anything under nodejs.org/docs
mcantelon 15y ago
Isaac is awesome. I have no fear about the continual deft shepherding of Node.
icefox 15y ago
down from what?
- laughinghan 15y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDFL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDFL
WayneDB 15y ago
Sorry to be negative, but I hope this doesn't mean that we're going to start seeing more of node's code in the npm style.
- eaurouge 15y ago
  I hope not. Edit: I don't know of too many prominent JavaScript programmers who prefer not to use semicolons. http://dailyjs.com/2012/01/12/style/ http://dailyjs.com/2012/01/12/style/
  - Zancarius 15y ago
    One of the better arguments I can think up against the npm coding style is probably found in the Matador framework, specifically its router: https://github.com/Obvious/matador/blob/master/src/router.js https://github.com/Obvious/matador/blob/master/src/router.js Note: I actually rather like Matador. I just find this particular style--high density, no semicolons--much harder on my eyes. I'm sure many others can read it better than I can, however.
    - insin 15y ago
      Leaving aside the global variable, I think this example's biggest issue is the complete lack of whitespace and the big stack of chained calls (which I'm not personally a fan of, but your house, your rules :)) - this is it with a few reader-sympathetic newlines added: https://gist.github.com/1710254 https://gist.github.com/1710254 Personally, I find using comma-first and omitting semicolons except where required for ASI reduces the amount of noise down the right-hand side of the code and the amount of scanning I have to do there (for variable definition, object literals and nested calls in particular).
      - WayneDB 15y ago
        I am used to looking for punctuation on the right hand side because I am a native reader of the English language. So, I don't think I've ever had to exert myself or do any extra scanning to see right-hand side punctuation in Javascript or English. Commas first cause more noise on the left side; they distract me because I'm used to reading English and I'm used to reading code that's written in English based programming languages where people generally agree that punctuation belongs on the right side. Honestly though, I care more about comments than coding style, something that the Joyent guys don't seem too fond of despite the complexity of the Node.js code. I just don't get it.
IsaacSchlueter 15y ago
Thanks everyone for the huge vote of confidence. I'm flattered and overwhelmed by the response.
- ambertch 15y ago
  Of course :) You stepping in and writing NPM was HUGE! Along with Ryan, you and guys like Tim, Guillermo, TJ, Felix, now Bert and others really got the ship pointed in the right direction
james33 15y ago
I sort of had a feeling this was coming for a while. Isaac has been doing more and more of the release updates on the blog, not to mention the increasing shift in commits on GitHub from Ryan to Isaac.
johnx123-up 15y ago
Some rumor... Joyent has taken this decision. Can anyone confirm please?
- IsaacSchlueter 15y ago
  There is no validity to that rumor, that I'm aware of.
no-espam 15y ago
This is very surprising. Node is not mature yet and the guy with "the vision" is stepping down. Makes you wonder if node is heading in a direction different than Ryan envisioned and it's no longer a labor of love.
perfunctory 15y ago
Hm. I am just wondering if it wouldn't be better if Ryan could make living of Node and therefore could stay to work on it. How does one make living of Node ... em, charge for it, maybe? Is it so radical to suggest that Node could be a paid product.
- obtu 15y ago
  Ryan and Isaac were both hired by Joyent after becoming established in the node community. Everyone seems happy with this being an open-source project.
  - perfunctory 15y ago
    I thought Ryan already worked at Joyent before he started his work on node. I didn't say it should be closed-source. Paid doesn't preclude open source.

387 points by rhdoenges 15y ago

Congratulations Isaac! I worked with him at Kno. Node.js is in good hands. At his introduction to the company at Kno, all he said was: "My name is Isaac. I do javascript."

cleverjake 15y ago

Wow, what was the last language whose creator stepped down so quickly? Either way, Isaac has been a huge source of energy since the beginning, so im glad its going to him. Congrats all around

pistoriusp 15y ago
He didn't invent the language. Just a platform that runs a language.
petercooper 15y ago
Inane trivia alert.. Ryan was at the helm of Node.js 2009-2012. The original JRuby creator, Jan Arne Petersen, was at the helm 2001-2004.

seldo 15y ago

Congratulations izs :-)

mvanveen 15y ago

What does this mean for the Node community at large? I recently had the pleasure of checking out the NodeUp podcasts. A large portion of the first episode is dedicated to enforcing the notion that Node is a new language, and that it will take decades to catch up to the maturity that Python and Perl provide as platforms. Opening up a subprocess, or having an `os` module which works in Windows, for example, all seemed like daunting tasks that took other languages decades to perfect. While I'm sure Node can catch up quickly, partly because Javascript is fast to write, and partly because of the trailblazing that other languages have already done (among other reasons, I'm sure), I can't help but think that the loss of the original author's momentum behind the project will cause Node to suffer. Python has had Guido as the BDFL for over 20 years. Larry Wall is firmly entrenched in the church of Perl. Having one voice shepherding the direction of the language has had tremendous influence on both languages. I can't help but think that node.js is in a similar situation.

techwraith 15y ago
The difference is that node.js is just an environment for an already established language to run on. Ryan accomplished a lot of great stuff with node, and Isaac will do the same. JavaScript != Node.
devongovett 15y ago
node.js isn't a language.
- pors 15y ago
  Linux isn't a language either, but they have Linus since forever.
  - IsaacSchlueter 15y ago
    To quote Mikeal Rogers, "The L in BDFL stands for LIFE, BRO!" Ryan will be a part of node forever. He's not gone. He just somehow talked me into doing a lot more work :)
Animus7 15y ago
> Having one voice shepherding the direction of the language has had tremendous influence on both languages. I can't help but think that node.js is in a similar situation. Not really. Node.js isn't a language that needs direction; ECMAScript is a separate standard with its own drivers. Node isn't even an implementation of a language, and V8 has its own community directing it. Node is a small core with pretty simple principles. The rest (the most important part, I'd argue) is a thriving third-party community, and that's something the loss of any single developer won't change.
gcr 15y ago
> Opening up a subprocess I'd take require('child_process') over python's subprocess any day.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

travisglines 15y ago

node.js is different. It's not a language, it's a small/extensible set of tools built on top of a solid language, and VM (V8) that are very mature. Node.js is in great hands with Isaac. Unlike many other web/network platforms node doesn't go around gobbling up everything into core. The community behind node is stronger and contributes more than I've seen before. Focusing on that third party module system experience is a good move to further grow the community, one that Isaac has been heading for a while. While many people will see the BDFL stepping down from a project as a bad sign, I think its the opposite. It has a dedicated and invested company behind it (Joyent), it's core doesn't try to do too much, it has legs of its own strong enough and it's community fault tolerant enough to grow quickly without him. Ryan spawned a project that grew a community that in the long run isn't reliant on him, a rare achievement of platform/language creators.

rhdoenges 15y ago
This change is a sign of Node's shift from improving the core to making modules work better. I see it that way, at least. Isaac is the author of npm after all.
- baudehlo 15y ago
  Unfortunately the core is missing some significant features, whereas modules work pretty well already (though I can see room for doing pre-compiled binary modules like "PPM" does for Perl on Windows).
  - Animus7 15y ago
    Honest question: have you actually tried working with modules and dependencies in Node? It's better now, but it's still not pleasant and often installing a module starts with debugging. And what's the core missing, would you say? Personally, I thought the cluster stuff was already getting heavy.
    - baudehlo 15y ago
      > Honest question: have you actually tried working with modules and dependencies in Node? It's better now, but it's still not pleasant and often installing a module starts with debugging. Yes. And you're right, but then it's not often that much better than other languages. Personally I'd rather they get the core language finished first (though their concept of "finished" and mine seem to differ). > And what's the core missing, would you say? Personally, I thought the cluster stuff was already getting heavy. There's no way to lock a file (making file writes completely fragile). There's no way to seek() in a file. There's no way to open a file with O_EXCL set (meaning lockless file writing is impossible). There's no temp file functionality in core, and without O_EXCL the solutions available for this on npm are utterly broken. There's still major bugs in the Crypto routines (they take Strings instead of Buffers in various places)... Honestly I could go on.

emehrkay 15y ago

Pure conjecture, but didn't he start complaining/ranting about programming around the time Node.js for Windows was being developed? Maybe it burned him out.

ambertch 15y ago
Valid conjecture, but I think Ryan's always had that about him ("Camelcase... how cute")
Encosia 15y ago
Weren't those complaints about nix's complexity though? The complaints about things like the nix filesystem were specific enough that it's a stretch to point toward Windows.

alexhaefner 15y ago

Does anyone have a link that doesn't require me to login to see this?

CrazedGeek 15y ago
"Now that the rewrite on top of libuv is largely complete, I am ceding my position as gatekeeper to Isaac Schlueter. Our energy will now be largely focused over the next few months on improving the third party module system experience including a website for browsing modules, a new addon build system, and binary installations from npm. Isaac is in the unique position to bridge the gap between core and external modules to ensure a pleasant experience. After three years of working on Node, this frees me up to work on research projects. I am still an employee at Joyent and will advise from the sidelines but I won't be involved in the day-to-day bug fixes. Isaac has final say over what makes it into the releases. Appeals for new features, changes, and bug fixes should now be directed at him. "
davvid 15y ago
Does anyone have a link that doesn't require me to login to see this? This is a google groups quirk. If you are logged into a google account it will prompt you. If you sign out of your google accounts then you can read it without being logged in.
- alexhaefner 15y ago
  I am not logged into my google account.
- obtu 15y ago
  That happens when google groups detects a cookie indicating someone logged in to google at some point in the past.

antirez 15y ago

It makes a lot of sense to move forward at some point, but this time the timing is a bit suspicious: now that node.js started to have a lot of traction the lead developer stepping down is a bit unexpected. My guess is that there is some very exciting new adventure in the Ryan's future, or that sometimes three years are simply enough from a "feelings" point of view. Anyway best fishes for the future. EDIT: edited a bit in the form to make my thought more clear.

grandalf 15y ago

Is this equivalent to DHH stepping down?

georgemcbay 15y ago
Clearly not. If this situation were anything like DHH stepping down there would be a lot more swearing involved.
asktell 15y ago
No.

PLejeck 15y ago

I feel incredibly sorry for Isaac. First he fell into maintaining NPM, now he gets to deal with Node too. Best of luck to him, he's sure gonna need it!

forgotAgain 15y ago

negative: It would have been nice to see a 1.0 release before this happened. positive: Without the originator in place perhaps a more formal product infrastructure can be put in place by Joyent. I'm thinking in particular about a structure for the documentation of primary third party modules like Connect and Express. At present the readme's and examples on Git, Sencha, and ExpressJs are all done by the original module developers. They're good but like most documentation done by the original developers make too many assumptions about what readers know. I don't mean to be too critical but if users are going to Stackoverflow for answers then there is a problem.

Animus7 15y ago
> It would have been nice to see a 1.0 release before this happened. I dunno, a lot of big players are using node in production, and the back-compat's getting reasonable. Why does the number when you type -v matter? > Without the originator in place perhaps a more formal product infrastructure can be put in place by Joyent. I'm thinking in particular about a structure for the documentation of primary third party modules... I think that's the opposite of what Node needs. All of these third party modules came about precisely because there's no blockers or infrastructure to getting started with extending Node. The documentation for some of these modules could definitely be better, but I don't think having a central authority imposing upon the community is a good solution. > I don't mean to be too critical but if users are going to Stackoverflow for answers then there is a problem. The reason SO is so huge is precisely because users of pretty much anything will always have problems. Node is not, and never will be, an exception.
mikeryan 15y ago
At present the readme's and examples on Git, Sencha, and ExpressJs are all done by the original module developers I don't get this. Why would a core team be responsible for the documentation of 3rd party modules. Node has some serious documentation issues but I'm not sure how Ryan or Joyent is responsible for anything outside of anything under nodejs.org/docs

mcantelon 15y ago

Isaac is awesome. I have no fear about the continual deft shepherding of Node.

icefox 15y ago

down from what?

laughinghan 15y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDFL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDFL

WayneDB 15y ago

Sorry to be negative, but I hope this doesn't mean that we're going to start seeing more of node's code in the npm style.

eaurouge 15y ago
I hope not. Edit: I don't know of too many prominent JavaScript programmers who prefer not to use semicolons. http://dailyjs.com/2012/01/12/style/ http://dailyjs.com/2012/01/12/style/
- Zancarius 15y ago
  One of the better arguments I can think up against the npm coding style is probably found in the Matador framework, specifically its router: https://github.com/Obvious/matador/blob/master/src/router.js https://github.com/Obvious/matador/blob/master/src/router.js Note: I actually rather like Matador. I just find this particular style--high density, no semicolons--much harder on my eyes. I'm sure many others can read it better than I can, however.
  - insin 15y ago
    Leaving aside the global variable, I think this example's biggest issue is the complete lack of whitespace and the big stack of chained calls (which I'm not personally a fan of, but your house, your rules :)) - this is it with a few reader-sympathetic newlines added: https://gist.github.com/1710254 https://gist.github.com/1710254 Personally, I find using comma-first and omitting semicolons except where required for ASI reduces the amount of noise down the right-hand side of the code and the amount of scanning I have to do there (for variable definition, object literals and nested calls in particular).
    - WayneDB 15y ago
      I am used to looking for punctuation on the right hand side because I am a native reader of the English language. So, I don't think I've ever had to exert myself or do any extra scanning to see right-hand side punctuation in Javascript or English. Commas first cause more noise on the left side; they distract me because I'm used to reading English and I'm used to reading code that's written in English based programming languages where people generally agree that punctuation belongs on the right side. Honestly though, I care more about comments than coding style, something that the Joyent guys don't seem too fond of despite the complexity of the Node.js code. I just don't get it.

IsaacSchlueter 15y ago

Thanks everyone for the huge vote of confidence. I'm flattered and overwhelmed by the response.

ambertch 15y ago
Of course :) You stepping in and writing NPM was HUGE! Along with Ryan, you and guys like Tim, Guillermo, TJ, Felix, now Bert and others really got the ship pointed in the right direction

james33 15y ago

I sort of had a feeling this was coming for a while. Isaac has been doing more and more of the release updates on the blog, not to mention the increasing shift in commits on GitHub from Ryan to Isaac.

johnx123-up 15y ago

Some rumor... Joyent has taken this decision. Can anyone confirm please?

IsaacSchlueter 15y ago
There is no validity to that rumor, that I'm aware of.

no-espam 15y ago

This is very surprising. Node is not mature yet and the guy with "the vision" is stepping down. Makes you wonder if node is heading in a direction different than Ryan envisioned and it's no longer a labor of love.

perfunctory 15y ago

Hm. I am just wondering if it wouldn't be better if Ryan could make living of Node and therefore could stay to work on it. How does one make living of Node ... em, charge for it, maybe? Is it so radical to suggest that Node could be a paid product.

obtu 15y ago
Ryan and Isaac were both hired by Joyent after becoming established in the node community. Everyone seems happy with this being an open-source project.
- perfunctory 15y ago
  I thought Ryan already worked at Joyent before he started his work on node. I didn't say it should be closed-source. Paid doesn't preclude open source.