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"Leftism" is a really dumb term with no precise meaning. The "free market" has never existed and never will because capitalist inherently push for protectionist

by cmh89 4y ago

"Leftism" is a really dumb term with no precise meaning. The "free market" has never existed and never will because capitalist inherently push for protectionist regulation. Capitalism brought us children working in mines 6 days a week, company towns, and extreme poverty world wide. Left-wing movements brought universal health care, lifted billions out of poverty with governmental spending on health and safety, and improved working conditions for billions throughout the world with regulations. "righests" like the monarchists caused the famine in India that killed 30 million people. Fascists in Europe caused a war that killed 60 million people. Authoritarian populist are always bad, regardless of their stripes. I don't know how/where you made up 150 million people starving, but right-wing populist are just as bad, and frequently worse than their left-wing populist counterparts.

WalterBright 4y ago
> The "free market" has never existed and never will The free market has existed in the US since its inception, excluding the slave south. > Capitalism brought us children working in mines 6 days a week, company towns, and extreme poverty world wide Free markets brought the world out of poverty. Perhaps you thought medieval children did not work? > lifted billions out of poverty with governmental spending on health and safety In the US that all happened before government spending on that. The US poverty rate is the same it was in 1968, the inception of the Great Society programs. It had been steadily declining before then. > I don't know how/where you made up 150 million people starving Communist countries. More to the point, every organization that has tried collective farms has failed to feed itself.
- cmh89 4y ago
  >The free market has existed in the US since its inception, excluding the slave south. Not true in the slightest. The US Customs Service was created four months after the constitution was ratified, therefore regulating what goods can be imported and making imported goods more expensive than domestic goods. The US has had a highly regulated economy since inception. >Free markets brought the world out of poverty. Perhaps you thought medieval children did not work? You just stated your opinion again? The free market doesn't actually exist and governmental organizations brought people out of poverty. >In the US that all happened before government spending on that. The US poverty rate is the same it was in 1968, the inception of the Great Society programs. It had been steadily declining before then Oh lordy, there is so much that you don't understand. Medicare and Social Security alone keep millions of seniors from dying homeless on the street every year. >Communist countries. More to the point, every organization that has tried collective farms has failed to feed itself. I understand WHY the number was made up. I'm asking for a citation for that number because it sounds like nonsense.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > Not true in the slightest Nobody said it was a "perfect" free market. Nothing human is perfect. It was a decent approximation to one, thought. Check out "The Black Book of Communism". > Medicare and Social Security alone keep millions of seniors from dying homeless on the street every year Somehow that didn't seem to have any effect on life expectancy or poverty statistics. > governmental organizations brought people out of poverty Do you really think that the enormous movement in the 19th century US of people out of poverty into the middle class came from government wealth transfer programs? Or do you think that the US population consisted of wealthy people who immigrated from Europe?
    - morsch 4y ago
      https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-at-birth-including-the-un-projections?time=earliest..2023&country=~USA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-at-birth-... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/median-age?time=earliest..2023&country=~USA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/median-age?time=earliest....
    - cmh89 4y ago
      >Nobody said it was a "perfect" free market. Nothing human is perfect. It was a decent approximation to one, thought. What are you talking about. Do you know the definition of 'free market'? "an economic system in which prices are determined by *unrestricted* competition between privately owned businesses." The United States is not, and never has been, a free market economy. Using 'perfect' and 'imperfect' is you simply trying to bend a definition to support an argument you want to make. The US market has always been highly regulated. >Somehow that didn't seem to have any effect on life expectancy or poverty statistics. Ah, so you're just throwing reality all the way out the window then? >Do you really think that the enormous movement in the 19th century US of people out of poverty into the middle class came from government wealth transfer programs? Why are you talking about wealth transfer programs? What are you talking about? Your knowledge on this subject seems to be realllly skewed towards what someone who consumes a lot of right-wing media content would think. I encourage you to do some actual reading on the subject.
nec4b 4y ago
>>Capitalism brought us children working in mines 6 days a week, company towns, and extreme poverty world wide. Do you really think children in feudalistic, communistic and pre-industrial societies didn't work. Children only stopped working when we as a society became rich enough they didn't have to anymore not because it was outlawed.
- cmh89 4y ago
  But we literally had to outlaw it. These are basic facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United... Going through and brigading the truth doesn't change it.
  - nec4b 4y ago
    Only because we could afford it and not because people suddenly became enlightened regarding child work. If we were to loose access to electricity and oil, how long do you think it would take for children being forced to work again? When Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 was passed it was estimated "only" 10% of children were working. That means 90% of them by that time already didn't have to. Maybe check your basic facts first next time.
    - cmh89 4y ago
      >Maybe check your basic facts first next time. What are you talking about? You don't seem to have even a basic understanding of this subject. You were fundamentally wrong about needing to outlaw child labor. You didn't seem to know what the Fair Labor Standards Act was until I introduced it to you. Capitalist are currently working to reintroduce child labor to the US to undercut wages. It's embarrassing for you to respond when you've displayed such a lack of understanding on the topic. "Every decade following 1870, the number of children in the workforce increased, with the percentage not dropping until the 1920s.[6] Especially in textile mills, children were often hired together with both parents and could be hired for only $2 a week.[7] Their parents could both work in the mill and watch their children at the same time" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_in_the_United_States#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_in_the_United_Stat... Child labor increased during the industrial revolution. You are simply wrong.

by cmh89 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

> The "free market" has never existed and never will The free market has existed in the US since its inception, excluding the slave south. > Capitalism brought us children working in mines 6 days a week, company towns, and extreme poverty world wide Free markets brought the world out of poverty. Perhaps you thought medieval children did not work? > lifted billions out of poverty with governmental spending on health and safety In the US that all happened before government spending on that. The US poverty rate is the same it was in 1968, the inception of the Great Society programs. It had been steadily declining before then. > I don't know how/where you made up 150 million people starving Communist countries. More to the point, every organization that has tried collective farms has failed to feed itself.

cmh89 4y ago
>The free market has existed in the US since its inception, excluding the slave south. Not true in the slightest. The US Customs Service was created four months after the constitution was ratified, therefore regulating what goods can be imported and making imported goods more expensive than domestic goods. The US has had a highly regulated economy since inception. >Free markets brought the world out of poverty. Perhaps you thought medieval children did not work? You just stated your opinion again? The free market doesn't actually exist and governmental organizations brought people out of poverty. >In the US that all happened before government spending on that. The US poverty rate is the same it was in 1968, the inception of the Great Society programs. It had been steadily declining before then Oh lordy, there is so much that you don't understand. Medicare and Social Security alone keep millions of seniors from dying homeless on the street every year. >Communist countries. More to the point, every organization that has tried collective farms has failed to feed itself. I understand WHY the number was made up. I'm asking for a citation for that number because it sounds like nonsense.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > Not true in the slightest Nobody said it was a "perfect" free market. Nothing human is perfect. It was a decent approximation to one, thought. Check out "The Black Book of Communism". > Medicare and Social Security alone keep millions of seniors from dying homeless on the street every year Somehow that didn't seem to have any effect on life expectancy or poverty statistics. > governmental organizations brought people out of poverty Do you really think that the enormous movement in the 19th century US of people out of poverty into the middle class came from government wealth transfer programs? Or do you think that the US population consisted of wealthy people who immigrated from Europe?
  - morsch 4y ago
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-at-birth-including-the-un-projections?time=earliest..2023&country=~USA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-at-birth-... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/median-age?time=earliest..2023&country=~USA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/median-age?time=earliest....
  - cmh89 4y ago
    >Nobody said it was a "perfect" free market. Nothing human is perfect. It was a decent approximation to one, thought. What are you talking about. Do you know the definition of 'free market'? "an economic system in which prices are determined by *unrestricted* competition between privately owned businesses." The United States is not, and never has been, a free market economy. Using 'perfect' and 'imperfect' is you simply trying to bend a definition to support an argument you want to make. The US market has always been highly regulated. >Somehow that didn't seem to have any effect on life expectancy or poverty statistics. Ah, so you're just throwing reality all the way out the window then? >Do you really think that the enormous movement in the 19th century US of people out of poverty into the middle class came from government wealth transfer programs? Why are you talking about wealth transfer programs? What are you talking about? Your knowledge on this subject seems to be realllly skewed towards what someone who consumes a lot of right-wing media content would think. I encourage you to do some actual reading on the subject.

nec4b 4y ago

>>Capitalism brought us children working in mines 6 days a week, company towns, and extreme poverty world wide. Do you really think children in feudalistic, communistic and pre-industrial societies didn't work. Children only stopped working when we as a society became rich enough they didn't have to anymore not because it was outlawed.

cmh89 4y ago
But we literally had to outlaw it. These are basic facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United... Going through and brigading the truth doesn't change it.
- nec4b 4y ago
  Only because we could afford it and not because people suddenly became enlightened regarding child work. If we were to loose access to electricity and oil, how long do you think it would take for children being forced to work again? When Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 was passed it was estimated "only" 10% of children were working. That means 90% of them by that time already didn't have to. Maybe check your basic facts first next time.
  - cmh89 4y ago
    >Maybe check your basic facts first next time. What are you talking about? You don't seem to have even a basic understanding of this subject. You were fundamentally wrong about needing to outlaw child labor. You didn't seem to know what the Fair Labor Standards Act was until I introduced it to you. Capitalist are currently working to reintroduce child labor to the US to undercut wages. It's embarrassing for you to respond when you've displayed such a lack of understanding on the topic. "Every decade following 1870, the number of children in the workforce increased, with the percentage not dropping until the 1920s.[6] Especially in textile mills, children were often hired together with both parents and could be hired for only $2 a week.[7] Their parents could both work in the mill and watch their children at the same time" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_in_the_United_States#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_in_the_United_Stat... Child labor increased during the industrial revolution. You are simply wrong.