4 ms·

The headline is a bit misleading since 42% of steel production [1] in Europe is already done using an electric arc furnace (i.e. electricity) . However, this is

by riedel 4y ago

The headline is a bit misleading since 42% of steel production [1] in Europe is already done using an electric arc furnace (i.e. electricity) . However, this is mostly recycling [2] [1] http://www.eurofer.org/201605-ESF.pdf?wtd=YC9cwLHyOWxX6JJD&request=resource&resource=o6yivpp&rand=6 http://www.eurofer.org/201605-ESF.pdf?wtd=YC9cwLHyOWxX6JJD&r... [2] https://wikiless.tiekoetter.com/wiki/Electric_arc_furnace?lang=en https://wikiless.tiekoetter.com/wiki/Electric_arc_furnace?la...

ginko 4y ago
Those still add coke or coal as a reducing agent though so it's not carbon neutral.
londons_explore 4y ago
In my view, the steel industry deliberately confuses arc furnaces (mostly used for recycling steel - effectively just melting it down) with making new steel in blast furnaces. This lets them do things like claim "steel made in USA" when in fact the steel was made in China, then brought to the USA, melted in an arc furnace, and suddenly it's "made in USA"! I suspect there are people chucking brand new steel into an arc furnace simply to change its origin country, and to take government subsidies for setting up new 'steel factories'. It also conveniently works around steel import tariffs - because you actually import 'scrap' steel, tariff free.
- simplotek 4y ago
  > (...) brought to the USA, melted in an arc furnace, and suddenly it's "made in USA"! I don't think this assertion makes sense. Making steel is way more than getting iron and mixing it up with some carbon. You need special manufacturing processes to get specific alloys and treatments to get the properties and reliability you expect. Recycling and importing steel is like importing a raw material. Your comment reads like "This let's them do things like claim burger made in USA when in fact the burger buns were made with corn from Ukraine and meat from Argentina".
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    I'm guessing the implication is that it allows concealment of CO2-intensive new steel production. If you take "raw" steel and process it, you can look green from your operations... ... just ignore the upstream producers using the lowest-cost but carbon-dirty processes.
    - akiselev 4y ago
      Recycling steel in an arc furnace is cheaper and uses less power than making new steel. The only reason we’re not on 100% recycled steel is because demand outstrips supply. Those upstrram processes are more expensive!
      - londons_explore 4y ago
        I don't think anyone is arguing against recycling steel. The argument is against producing new steel, shipping it across the world, and then immediately scrapping and recycling it, as a way to claim it is both green and locally produced.
        credit_guy 4y ago
        Does this actually happen, or it's just a hypothetical? (in other words, do you have some links?)
        TheSoftwareGuy 4y ago
        But if the recycled steel is cheaper, who would spend a bunch of money to take an expensive input, and create a cheap output? It doesn’t economically make sense
        akiselev 4y ago
        Absolutely no one does that. Even the cheapest, dirtiest iron ore from Brazil or Australia can't compete with steel scrap in the US or EU because recycling uses less than quarter of the total power and produces a fifth of the emissions that producing virgin steel does. You can't greenwash something when the green version costs way less than the polluting one. It'll be written on the price tag!
photochemsyn 4y ago
A direct reduction system (whether powered by hydrogen or this electrolysis method) would be upstream of the electric arc furnace, see this graphic: https://www.steel.org/steel-technology/steel-production/ https://www.steel.org/steel-technology/steel-production/ It's iron ore -> direct reduction (iron) -> electric arc (steel) with carbon being added to the iron in the furnace. This is a replacement for the older pipeline of iron ore -> blast furnace -> basic oxygen furnace.
mannykannot 4y ago
This is actually about extracting iron from ores and other sources of its oxide, as opposed to making steel from metallic iron and scrap steel.
Animats 4y ago
That's about right for the US, too. Once a country is developed, the amount of steel in active use seems to be roughly constant. It's easy to extract from trash and recycling. That's how Nucor, which is mostly a recycler, became the US's largest steel company. (15th in the world, though. The top 14 are in China, Japan, S. Korea, and India. Except for ArcelorMittal, which is nominally in Luxembourg but is a holding company which buys up old steel mills and restarts them.)

by riedel 4y ago

ginko 4y ago

Those still add coke or coal as a reducing agent though so it's not carbon neutral.

londons_explore 4y ago

In my view, the steel industry deliberately confuses arc furnaces (mostly used for recycling steel - effectively just melting it down) with making new steel in blast furnaces. This lets them do things like claim "steel made in USA" when in fact the steel was made in China, then brought to the USA, melted in an arc furnace, and suddenly it's "made in USA"! I suspect there are people chucking brand new steel into an arc furnace simply to change its origin country, and to take government subsidies for setting up new 'steel factories'. It also conveniently works around steel import tariffs - because you actually import 'scrap' steel, tariff free.

simplotek 4y ago
> (...) brought to the USA, melted in an arc furnace, and suddenly it's "made in USA"! I don't think this assertion makes sense. Making steel is way more than getting iron and mixing it up with some carbon. You need special manufacturing processes to get specific alloys and treatments to get the properties and reliability you expect. Recycling and importing steel is like importing a raw material. Your comment reads like "This let's them do things like claim burger made in USA when in fact the burger buns were made with corn from Ukraine and meat from Argentina".
- ethbr0 4y ago
  I'm guessing the implication is that it allows concealment of CO2-intensive new steel production. If you take "raw" steel and process it, you can look green from your operations... ... just ignore the upstream producers using the lowest-cost but carbon-dirty processes.
  - akiselev 4y ago
    Recycling steel in an arc furnace is cheaper and uses less power than making new steel. The only reason we’re not on 100% recycled steel is because demand outstrips supply. Those upstrram processes are more expensive!
    - londons_explore 4y ago
      I don't think anyone is arguing against recycling steel. The argument is against producing new steel, shipping it across the world, and then immediately scrapping and recycling it, as a way to claim it is both green and locally produced.
      - credit_guy 4y ago
        Does this actually happen, or it's just a hypothetical? (in other words, do you have some links?)
      - TheSoftwareGuy 4y ago
        But if the recycled steel is cheaper, who would spend a bunch of money to take an expensive input, and create a cheap output? It doesn’t economically make sense
      - akiselev 4y ago
        Absolutely no one does that. Even the cheapest, dirtiest iron ore from Brazil or Australia can't compete with steel scrap in the US or EU because recycling uses less than quarter of the total power and produces a fifth of the emissions that producing virgin steel does. You can't greenwash something when the green version costs way less than the polluting one. It'll be written on the price tag!

photochemsyn 4y ago

A direct reduction system (whether powered by hydrogen or this electrolysis method) would be upstream of the electric arc furnace, see this graphic: https://www.steel.org/steel-technology/steel-production/ https://www.steel.org/steel-technology/steel-production/ It's iron ore -> direct reduction (iron) -> electric arc (steel) with carbon being added to the iron in the furnace. This is a replacement for the older pipeline of iron ore -> blast furnace -> basic oxygen furnace.

mannykannot 4y ago

This is actually about extracting iron from ores and other sources of its oxide, as opposed to making steel from metallic iron and scrap steel.

Animats 4y ago

That's about right for the US, too. Once a country is developed, the amount of steel in active use seems to be roughly constant. It's easy to extract from trash and recycling. That's how Nucor, which is mostly a recycler, became the US's largest steel company. (15th in the world, though. The top 14 are in China, Japan, S. Korea, and India. Except for ArcelorMittal, which is nominally in Luxembourg but is a holding company which buys up old steel mills and restarts them.)