4 ms·

If I were standing in Times Square with you and I asked you to point out the women as they walked down the street, would you reply "I can't, I can't see their v

If I were standing in Times Square with you and I asked you to point out the women as they walked down the street, would you reply "I can't, I can't see their vaginas"? There's more to being a "woman" than having female reproductive organs. That doesn't render the term "woman" meaningless. It just means there are a large number of characteristics that define "woman" and each woman exhibits a varying set of them. And unless you're planning to mate with them, their vagina is none of your business.

worthless-trash 4y ago
> There's more to being a "woman" than having female reproductive organs. What is it then ? Edit: I'm sorry, i realise that this is a troll-leading question, that ensures no good answer, because we can't give a good answer that doesn't offend someone. It shows that we're as a group intentionally ignoring basic reality, which is a shame but it is what it is.
- gcanyon 4y ago
  It seems fairly obvious. I'm not an expert, but: If a person has longer hair, no facial hair, is wearing a dress, has a higher voice, wider hips, and the appearance of breasts, I'd assume they are a woman. BUT: if a person with all of those traits says they're a man, I'm going to nod, file it away for future reference, and -- most importantly -- move on with my day. And likewise, if a person with none of those traits tells me they are a woman, again, I will nod, remember it, and move on. It's not hard.
  - worthless-trash 4y ago
    I didn't ask what makes you believe/accept someone is a woman, anyone can accept anothers perspetive.
    - gcanyon 4y ago
      If that's not what you're asking for, then it seems you're asking for a flowchart that determine's someone's gender. Gender being a social construct (as opposed to sex) there is no decisive flowchart other than: ask them; accept the answer. If you want something generally accurate, I stand behind what I said above.
      - worthless-trash 4y ago
        Cool, as long as we're saying that 'woman' is a mindset and not a set of verifiable attributes. Does everyone take "woman" as this meaning though, or is this the root of the confusion that everyone has ?
        gcanyon 4y ago
        "mindset" is actually a pretty reasonable descriptor I think (I'm not an expert though). I think a lot of the confusion does come from people having a hard time separating "what does this person want me to call them" from "how do I treat this person". I think (again, I speak only for myself, and I'm not even trans) most trans people would be happy to be called their chosen pronouns and treated in a neutral way. There is a lot of history backing up a more constrained interpretation of gender and interpersonal relationships, and the present situation is definitely outside many people's comfort zone.
      - ungamedplayer 4y ago
        Ah, long as we're clear on the fact that they are two different things. I'm good with that.
flippinburgers 4y ago
Having XX is the primary foundation upon which all else is built.
- gcanyon 4y ago
  How? For example, how do chromosomes lead to wearing skirts or pants? And to your point, the things an XX chromosome does lead to can be changed, with hormones, etc.
  - eldritch_4ier 4y ago
    It’s simple really: just look at animals. It’s very obvious all mammals are dual sex, no more no less. It’s a fact that there are only 2 sexes when it comes to mammals. They also have average behavior differences due to hormones and their structure, but this only goes so deep. Bulls for instance are more aggressive than cows on average - this is because their hormonal differences that stem all the way back to their chromosomal differences, but also due to their body differences (like extra muscle and size) that give them the ability and perception by other cows. These things are the same in humans: we have our “run-time sexual differences” that come from hormones, and our “static sexual differences” from how those hormones have built our bodies over time. Men behave differently on average because of the hormones profile in their body is different from that of women. Men also behave differently because those hormones over their life time have changed their body to be larger on average, and this on another level has led them to have different experiences than women that have shaped their mindset and behavior (eg being larger means people treat you differently, and that reinforces different behaviors). All this to say that the differences between the sexes are almost entirely immutably biological at the base (including the social construct aspects). The differences between men and women start from the chromosomes, and that decides hormones and body structure, and those two affect how people treat you naturally (a larger, more aggressive organism is treated differently than a smaller, less aggressive person), which creates over time what we call gender roles. Some examples: men being deemed “protectors” isn’t just some arbitrary gender role out of the blue, it stems from the fact that one sex of the human species is obviously larger, and so naturally expected to step up in these situations throughout their life. Aka: if you reset everyone’s memory of gender roles, they’d likely come back and be pretty similar in broad strokes very quickly, because they are determined at the base by chromosomes > hormones > body structure > how others perceive you and the experiences you have in your life as a result. Men can never be women and vice versa. You can change the hormones, but you can’t change the body structure, the chromosomes, the experiences of the individual and others, and consequently how others naturally react to them. Those aspects all together are what makes a man fundamentally different from a woman.
fwungy 4y ago
But it isn't just a vagina that makes a woman. They have specific organs that require specific hormonal profiles. Women have different skeletal dimensions than men, to the point where sex can be accurately ascertained from the skeleton alone. The physical differences between men and women are not just societally imposed, and form the basis for their oppression. This cannot be wished away.
- gcanyon 4y ago
  No one is wishing it away. There's a difference between sex and gender: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21 https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/article...
  - fwungy 4y ago
    By the same logic a white person could claim they were actually black. The reality is there is far more genetic distance between a male and female than between races. Yet, anyone who did such a thing would be seriously problematic. It is equally problematic for a man to claim he is woman by exactly the same logic as the oppression against women cannot fairly be appropriated by men. Men have been screwing over women for thousands of years. It's not ok for them to appropriate their name and identity because of some qualitative feeling they're experiencing. It's not ok. What's wrong with the term "transwoman" for a transwoman?
    - gcanyon 4y ago
      It's not my place to say who can call themselves black, nor a woman.

worthless-trash 4y ago

> There's more to being a "woman" than having female reproductive organs. What is it then ? Edit: I'm sorry, i realise that this is a troll-leading question, that ensures no good answer, because we can't give a good answer that doesn't offend someone. It shows that we're as a group intentionally ignoring basic reality, which is a shame but it is what it is.

gcanyon 4y ago
It seems fairly obvious. I'm not an expert, but: If a person has longer hair, no facial hair, is wearing a dress, has a higher voice, wider hips, and the appearance of breasts, I'd assume they are a woman. BUT: if a person with all of those traits says they're a man, I'm going to nod, file it away for future reference, and -- most importantly -- move on with my day. And likewise, if a person with none of those traits tells me they are a woman, again, I will nod, remember it, and move on. It's not hard.
- worthless-trash 4y ago
  I didn't ask what makes you believe/accept someone is a woman, anyone can accept anothers perspetive.
  - gcanyon 4y ago
    If that's not what you're asking for, then it seems you're asking for a flowchart that determine's someone's gender. Gender being a social construct (as opposed to sex) there is no decisive flowchart other than: ask them; accept the answer. If you want something generally accurate, I stand behind what I said above.
    - worthless-trash 4y ago
      Cool, as long as we're saying that 'woman' is a mindset and not a set of verifiable attributes. Does everyone take "woman" as this meaning though, or is this the root of the confusion that everyone has ?
      - gcanyon 4y ago
        "mindset" is actually a pretty reasonable descriptor I think (I'm not an expert though). I think a lot of the confusion does come from people having a hard time separating "what does this person want me to call them" from "how do I treat this person". I think (again, I speak only for myself, and I'm not even trans) most trans people would be happy to be called their chosen pronouns and treated in a neutral way. There is a lot of history backing up a more constrained interpretation of gender and interpersonal relationships, and the present situation is definitely outside many people's comfort zone.
    - ungamedplayer 4y ago
      Ah, long as we're clear on the fact that they are two different things. I'm good with that.

flippinburgers 4y ago

Having XX is the primary foundation upon which all else is built.

gcanyon 4y ago
How? For example, how do chromosomes lead to wearing skirts or pants? And to your point, the things an XX chromosome does lead to can be changed, with hormones, etc.
- eldritch_4ier 4y ago
  It’s simple really: just look at animals. It’s very obvious all mammals are dual sex, no more no less. It’s a fact that there are only 2 sexes when it comes to mammals. They also have average behavior differences due to hormones and their structure, but this only goes so deep. Bulls for instance are more aggressive than cows on average - this is because their hormonal differences that stem all the way back to their chromosomal differences, but also due to their body differences (like extra muscle and size) that give them the ability and perception by other cows. These things are the same in humans: we have our “run-time sexual differences” that come from hormones, and our “static sexual differences” from how those hormones have built our bodies over time. Men behave differently on average because of the hormones profile in their body is different from that of women. Men also behave differently because those hormones over their life time have changed their body to be larger on average, and this on another level has led them to have different experiences than women that have shaped their mindset and behavior (eg being larger means people treat you differently, and that reinforces different behaviors). All this to say that the differences between the sexes are almost entirely immutably biological at the base (including the social construct aspects). The differences between men and women start from the chromosomes, and that decides hormones and body structure, and those two affect how people treat you naturally (a larger, more aggressive organism is treated differently than a smaller, less aggressive person), which creates over time what we call gender roles. Some examples: men being deemed “protectors” isn’t just some arbitrary gender role out of the blue, it stems from the fact that one sex of the human species is obviously larger, and so naturally expected to step up in these situations throughout their life. Aka: if you reset everyone’s memory of gender roles, they’d likely come back and be pretty similar in broad strokes very quickly, because they are determined at the base by chromosomes > hormones > body structure > how others perceive you and the experiences you have in your life as a result. Men can never be women and vice versa. You can change the hormones, but you can’t change the body structure, the chromosomes, the experiences of the individual and others, and consequently how others naturally react to them. Those aspects all together are what makes a man fundamentally different from a woman.

fwungy 4y ago

But it isn't just a vagina that makes a woman. They have specific organs that require specific hormonal profiles. Women have different skeletal dimensions than men, to the point where sex can be accurately ascertained from the skeleton alone. The physical differences between men and women are not just societally imposed, and form the basis for their oppression. This cannot be wished away.

gcanyon 4y ago
No one is wishing it away. There's a difference between sex and gender: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21 https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/article...
- fwungy 4y ago
  By the same logic a white person could claim they were actually black. The reality is there is far more genetic distance between a male and female than between races. Yet, anyone who did such a thing would be seriously problematic. It is equally problematic for a man to claim he is woman by exactly the same logic as the oppression against women cannot fairly be appropriated by men. Men have been screwing over women for thousands of years. It's not ok for them to appropriate their name and identity because of some qualitative feeling they're experiencing. It's not ok. What's wrong with the term "transwoman" for a transwoman?
  - gcanyon 4y ago
    It's not my place to say who can call themselves black, nor a woman.