22 ms·

...really? It's not about the money..it's about the experience. Granted, an internship that pays you + gives you the experience you're seeking is a jackpot, but

by philco 15y ago

...really? It's not about the money..it's about the experience. Granted, an internship that pays you + gives you the experience you're seeking is a jackpot, but I would always rank experience over money. I worked 20 hours a week in college (and my summers) mostly for free, and I don't regret a second of it. Learned more through those opportunities than anything that would have paid me.

jff 15y ago
I'm coming here from a slightly different angle, as a computer engineer, but here's how I see it. If you're going to work at a tiny little startup of 2-3 people, maybe they can't pay you. Of course, maybe they shouldn't be hiring interns at that stage of the game. I worked as an intern for a startup that size, though, and they still paid me $15/hour. If you're working somewhere larger, it only makes sense that they should pay you if you're doing work of value. Telling you it's all about the experience is like that oft-told story where clients want web designers to work for free, because it's "good exposure" and will "expand your portfolio". As an intern, I've laid out, soldered, and debugged PCBs, designed and assembled test equipment setups, made fiber optic cables, tested cameras for surveillance drones, re-written UIs to use WPF, done significant kernel hacking, and published several papers, among other things. All of these tasks generated value for my employers, and it only makes sense that they should pay me for it. That's just my 2 cents, though.
- philco 15y ago
  Yep - I agree, you should get yours. Maybe there should be a more robust culture of giving interns equity at early stage startups. VC's hate cluttered cap tables...but it would be a fair way to compensate students for their work if the startup can't afford to pay them.
  - scott_s 15y ago
    If you can't afford to pay someone for work [edit: in the US, can't speak for other countries], it's illegal for them to work for you. It doesn't matter if they're a student and you call it an internship, even if they get credit for it.
    - UnFleshedOne 15y ago
      What's the purpose of this law? (I would normally expect opposite -- that it is illegal for you to hire them if you can't afford it.)
      - scott_s 15y ago
        Perhaps you misunderstood me, so let me state it another way: you must pay people who work for you, even if their title is "intern." To do otherwise circumvents the minimum wage laws.
        wisty 15y ago
        There's often exceptions for interns. I don't know about the US though. It's a common dodge in Australia to put people on as "trainees". I think it can be illegal if they aren't really being trained, and there's lots of other rules (like it must be an educational course requirement).
        scott_s 15y ago
        There is no exception in the US. The only way a company can have an unpaid intern in the US is if that intern does no productive work for the company - that is, they don't profit from the intern's labor. My understanding is that it's actually rare for tech companies to violate this law. But I have heard that it is common in the publishing industry. See: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2412255 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2412255
        wisty 15y ago
        That is an exception - US interns just can't be "productive". FTA: "50 percent of graduating students had held internships". Face it, most of them will be doing unpaid clerical work. It will be "educational", in that they will gain valuable office skills, but it won't really be legal.
        15y ago
endtime 15y ago
Do you think you'd have learned less at a paid internship?
- philco 15y ago
  I'm not arguing that you don't learn at a paid position. I'm arguing that the focus for an internship shouldn't be the money. Ranking in terms of priority: 1) Paid + Learning = Jackpot. 2) Learning Only, Unpaid = Not as great, but at least you're building skills that will increase your value out of school. 3) Paid Only, Less Learning = Worst option. When it comes to full time hiring, people won't care that your internship paid you 15-30/hr. They'll care about what you've learned, what quantifiable skills you bring to the table, and proof that you're a mover and shaker.
  - endtime 15y ago
    I don't disagree with anything you're saying...but I get the sense you think case 3 is far more common than I think it is.
AlexeyMK 15y ago
Philip - unpaid internships are not inherently evil, but the market for tech interns is strong enough that most everybody should be able to find a paying internship. It's a different standard in tech - the only interns not being paid are the ones nobody told better.
- steve-howard 15y ago
  In the fantasy world in which labor laws are obeyed for the good of employees, an unpaid internship should inherently mean you don't do any real work. Otherwise it would ostensibly be illegal.
C0D34RCH3R 15y ago
That's a pretty general assumption thinking you would learn less at a paying position. Not all of us can live at home with mommy, we have bills to pay. There are also older people, wanting to change careers, that need to provide for their families. People need to stop taking unpaid internships so companies stop thinking they can get away with it. They make money off your work so you deserve to be paid for it. If they don't pay you then they are taking advantage of you, and if you allow that then your just a tool.
rgbrgb 15y ago
When were you in college? These days nearly everyone I've seen is paying for interns. Kids from top schools are looking at $15-20k offers from Google and Amazon and at least $10k or so from startups in the Bay and NYC. The one shop I've seen who didn't pay for interns was in upstate NY and only recruited from a small college nearby. It was hard to take them seriously with just that but when they said they didn't pay, the top students with options just walked away. Not only are interns doing work but they're being trained and inducted into a company that they have a very high likelihood of returning to. It is a big win for the company if they can try you out at a discounted rate before hiring you full time.
- philco 15y ago
  I'm with you - the big companies should (and do) pay their interns. I also agree that it's a big win - you get to see how the students perform in your culture, and what quality work their produce. Massive win. But as a student, it's important to build valuable experience that you can quantify. If you can get that experience AND get paid at Amazon,Google, etc, then so be it! That's awesome. But if you have an amazing opportunity to learn more, and have a greater impact at a smaller org, that pays less or nothing, then that could still be the best opportunity as an intern. (Not to mention, it could also prove to be more rewarding). Don't get me wrong - if you're going to learn more AND get paid big bucks at one of the big companies, then that's the best opportunity in the world and you should never pass that up.
dryicerx 15y ago
You're right in that it's about experience and not about the money, BUT if it's a tech company that can't properly compensate, it should be a big red light. All the internships I've done and folks I knew in CS/CE/EE, I don't recall anyone having an unpaid internship.
scott_s 15y ago
I have no disagreement that the experience is more important than the money, but in the US, if you are doing useful work for a company, then they legally have to pay you. Being offered an unpaid internship should be a red flag. While it's possible for a tech company to have an intern around who does no useful work for the company, I find it unlikely. And, given that, any company that would willfully break labor law is probably going to be a bad place to work.
philwelch 15y ago
Not all of us had the opportunity to "rank experience over money". Some of us had to earn money during the summers just to get by and hoped to find an opportunity to do that with a relevant internship.

by philco 15y ago

jff 15y ago

I'm coming here from a slightly different angle, as a computer engineer, but here's how I see it. If you're going to work at a tiny little startup of 2-3 people, maybe they can't pay you. Of course, maybe they shouldn't be hiring interns at that stage of the game. I worked as an intern for a startup that size, though, and they still paid me $15/hour. If you're working somewhere larger, it only makes sense that they should pay you if you're doing work of value. Telling you it's all about the experience is like that oft-told story where clients want web designers to work for free, because it's "good exposure" and will "expand your portfolio". As an intern, I've laid out, soldered, and debugged PCBs, designed and assembled test equipment setups, made fiber optic cables, tested cameras for surveillance drones, re-written UIs to use WPF, done significant kernel hacking, and published several papers, among other things. All of these tasks generated value for my employers, and it only makes sense that they should pay me for it. That's just my 2 cents, though.

philco 15y ago
Yep - I agree, you should get yours. Maybe there should be a more robust culture of giving interns equity at early stage startups. VC's hate cluttered cap tables...but it would be a fair way to compensate students for their work if the startup can't afford to pay them.
- scott_s 15y ago
  If you can't afford to pay someone for work [edit: in the US, can't speak for other countries], it's illegal for them to work for you. It doesn't matter if they're a student and you call it an internship, even if they get credit for it.
  - UnFleshedOne 15y ago
    What's the purpose of this law? (I would normally expect opposite -- that it is illegal for you to hire them if you can't afford it.)
    - scott_s 15y ago
      Perhaps you misunderstood me, so let me state it another way: you must pay people who work for you, even if their title is "intern." To do otherwise circumvents the minimum wage laws.
      - wisty 15y ago
        There's often exceptions for interns. I don't know about the US though. It's a common dodge in Australia to put people on as "trainees". I think it can be illegal if they aren't really being trained, and there's lots of other rules (like it must be an educational course requirement).
        scott_s 15y ago
        There is no exception in the US. The only way a company can have an unpaid intern in the US is if that intern does no productive work for the company - that is, they don't profit from the intern's labor. My understanding is that it's actually rare for tech companies to violate this law. But I have heard that it is common in the publishing industry. See: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2412255 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2412255
        wisty 15y ago
        That is an exception - US interns just can't be "productive". FTA: "50 percent of graduating students had held internships". Face it, most of them will be doing unpaid clerical work. It will be "educational", in that they will gain valuable office skills, but it won't really be legal.
        15y ago

endtime 15y ago

Do you think you'd have learned less at a paid internship?

philco 15y ago
I'm not arguing that you don't learn at a paid position. I'm arguing that the focus for an internship shouldn't be the money. Ranking in terms of priority: 1) Paid + Learning = Jackpot. 2) Learning Only, Unpaid = Not as great, but at least you're building skills that will increase your value out of school. 3) Paid Only, Less Learning = Worst option. When it comes to full time hiring, people won't care that your internship paid you 15-30/hr. They'll care about what you've learned, what quantifiable skills you bring to the table, and proof that you're a mover and shaker.
- endtime 15y ago
  I don't disagree with anything you're saying...but I get the sense you think case 3 is far more common than I think it is.

AlexeyMK 15y ago

Philip - unpaid internships are not inherently evil, but the market for tech interns is strong enough that most everybody should be able to find a paying internship. It's a different standard in tech - the only interns not being paid are the ones nobody told better.

steve-howard 15y ago
In the fantasy world in which labor laws are obeyed for the good of employees, an unpaid internship should inherently mean you don't do any real work. Otherwise it would ostensibly be illegal.

C0D34RCH3R 15y ago

That's a pretty general assumption thinking you would learn less at a paying position. Not all of us can live at home with mommy, we have bills to pay. There are also older people, wanting to change careers, that need to provide for their families. People need to stop taking unpaid internships so companies stop thinking they can get away with it. They make money off your work so you deserve to be paid for it. If they don't pay you then they are taking advantage of you, and if you allow that then your just a tool.

rgbrgb 15y ago

When were you in college? These days nearly everyone I've seen is paying for interns. Kids from top schools are looking at $15-20k offers from Google and Amazon and at least $10k or so from startups in the Bay and NYC. The one shop I've seen who didn't pay for interns was in upstate NY and only recruited from a small college nearby. It was hard to take them seriously with just that but when they said they didn't pay, the top students with options just walked away. Not only are interns doing work but they're being trained and inducted into a company that they have a very high likelihood of returning to. It is a big win for the company if they can try you out at a discounted rate before hiring you full time.

philco 15y ago
I'm with you - the big companies should (and do) pay their interns. I also agree that it's a big win - you get to see how the students perform in your culture, and what quality work their produce. Massive win. But as a student, it's important to build valuable experience that you can quantify. If you can get that experience AND get paid at Amazon,Google, etc, then so be it! That's awesome. But if you have an amazing opportunity to learn more, and have a greater impact at a smaller org, that pays less or nothing, then that could still be the best opportunity as an intern. (Not to mention, it could also prove to be more rewarding). Don't get me wrong - if you're going to learn more AND get paid big bucks at one of the big companies, then that's the best opportunity in the world and you should never pass that up.

dryicerx 15y ago

You're right in that it's about experience and not about the money, BUT if it's a tech company that can't properly compensate, it should be a big red light. All the internships I've done and folks I knew in CS/CE/EE, I don't recall anyone having an unpaid internship.

scott_s 15y ago

I have no disagreement that the experience is more important than the money, but in the US, if you are doing useful work for a company, then they legally have to pay you. Being offered an unpaid internship should be a red flag. While it's possible for a tech company to have an intern around who does no useful work for the company, I find it unlikely. And, given that, any company that would willfully break labor law is probably going to be a bad place to work.

philwelch 15y ago

Not all of us had the opportunity to "rank experience over money". Some of us had to earn money during the summers just to get by and hoped to find an opportunity to do that with a relevant internship.