4 ms·

Could someone enlighten me? Chinese 2017 National Security Law Article 7 says "Any organization and citizen shall support, assist and cooperate with national in

Could someone enlighten me? Chinese 2017 National Security Law Article 7 says "Any organization and citizen shall support, assist and cooperate with national intelligence work in accordance with the law" [1]. This law says TikTok must obey and help the Chinese government national intelligence. The concern is that although you live in Canada, US, Europe; you can still be "arrested" by Chinese police working in hidden police departments in the Canada, US, and Europe [2]. And TikTok will tell them where you are. From the second article: FBI director Christopher Wray told a US Senate hearing in November that attempts by China to set up a police presence on US soil "violates sovereignty and circumvents standard judicial and law enforcement cooperation processes". [1] http://www.npc.gov.cn/npc/c30834/201806/483221713dac4f31bda7f9d951108912.shtml http://www.npc.gov.cn/npc/c30834/201806/483221713dac4f31bda7... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64909560 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64909560

robg 4y ago
Do you have an example of someone being arrested by Chinese intelligence on foreign soil, let alone due to TikTok data?
- ochoseis 4y ago
  You can read about one called “Operation Fox Hunt” here on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fox_Hunt?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fox_Hunt?wprov=sfti1
- rawgabbit 4y ago
  The actual tactics underpinning the CCP’s anticorruption campaign are much more unsavory. These include at a minimum surveillance, physical threats, and family intimidation in order to force exiles to return “voluntarily” to China. In October 2020, the US Department of Justice accused eight individuals of acting as illegal agents of China in a multiyear campaign of harassment and stalking in order to coerce an unnamed Chinese individual to return to face trial.68 In 2018, US intelligence officials alleged off the record to Foreign Policy that Chinese agents had beaten and drugged multiple individuals in Australia, returning them to China by boat.69 https://freedomhouse.org/report/transnational-repression/china https://freedomhouse.org/report/transnational-repression/chi...
- thevagrant 4y ago
  No arrests in this example but still quite concerning.[1] Power can be used without needing to publicly arrest someone [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/22/tiktok-bytedance-workers-fired-data-access-journalists https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/22/tiktok-by...
- dixie_land 4y ago
  [flagged]
norgie 4y ago
What stops China from just buying this data from data collection companies like the FBI and police do? Seems like that’d be much easier
- imgabe 4y ago
  Theoretically, export control laws could (not sure if they do). We regulate selling all kinds of things to foreign governments.
- sharemywin 4y ago
  pr the darkweb?
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  Wouldn't be surprised if they are compelled not to sell the info by the government. Also wouldn't be surprised if they've been buying it this entire time, either.
- rchaud 4y ago
  Nothing. It won't be asked at a hearing because it might be embarrassing to reveal that corporations and law enforcement use this against American civlians already. Jan 6th rioters were detected using cell phone geolocation signals as well as video.
roenxi 4y ago
That isn't arguing the "worse" part. Facebook is also going to support, assist, etc, with US national intelligence services. You can be black-bagged anywhere in the world by the US too, they are pretty famous for how far the arm of US law reaches.
- lambdasquirrel 4y ago
  On the bright side, the U.S. and China aren’t cooperating. If they were that would be a whole other level of fuckery. (Probably the only silver lining of this geopolitical “competition” right now.)
- quest88 4y ago
  Yes, when required by court order. The USA has a court of laws, proposed by legislatures we vote for. Who knows about China.
  - roenxi 4y ago
    Do you have any evidence that supports that being the case in practice? Can you have evidence of it? Whenever we get a peek behind the curtain it generally seems like warrants are not a factor. That belief has to ultimately be a statement of faith. It is basically counting on highly untrustworthy people behaving honestly - they probably aren't. And all the elements of the system are hidden where there is no accountability.
    - remarkEon 4y ago
      It's an appeal to a written system of laws that has continuity. China doesn't have this, it has Xi and the Party. These whataboutisms are tiresome because they're so shallow. They're shallow in that they evoke a criticism of some aspect of how the United States manages itself as a method of deflecting from the quite awful and well evidenced way that CCP runs China.
      - roenxi 4y ago
        How do you expect to compare Google to TikTok without "whataboutisms"? Comparison is whataboutism! It is just a fact that Google and the US intelligence apparatus are more invasive than TikTok and the Chinese. The former combo spy and conspire against almost literally the range of Trump to Afghan goat herders. TikTok can compete with that, but it can't exceed it. If I could pick one, I'd feel much safer being spied on the Chinese than the Americans. They've got much less ability to make my life hell. Look at how far Snowden had to run, and how Assange never ran far enough.
jdietrich 4y ago
Under the ironically-named USA Freedom Act, the US government has essentially the same powers. My country doesn't have an extradition treaty with China, but it does have one with the US. There's no evidence that citizens of my country have ever been disappeared by China and taken to secret prisons, but there's documentary evidence that the US have done exactly that. I'm genuinely trying to think of a good-faith argument for why Chinese tech firms are less trustworthy than American tech firms, but I honestly can't think of one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
- vanilla_nut 4y ago
  Still a problem from a USA national security standpoint. But absolutely agreed -- as a user, I can't trust any of these governments or companies. The only things I do trust are E2EE services that don't collect unnecessary personal data in the first place.
- remarkEon 4y ago
  I thought about asking what country you were from, but I realized it doesn't matter. I'm from the United States and I want this app banned. While the things you cite are or could be bad, it's entirely irrelevant to dealing with an app that is demonstrably a psychological control system. You're upset that CIA or US Army spec ops kidnapped people from your country? Imagine the United States injecting a social media system into your country that brainwashes people into thinking that they deserved it. TikTok can do this.
  - silveroriole 4y ago
    “Demonstrably” a psychological control system? Go on then, demonstrate it.
  - herbst 4y ago
    The US let Meta whatever they want and do all the harmful things to our youths psych. Like increased suicide rates, body issues and much more. I agree with the poster before, I don't see the big difference here

robg 4y ago

Do you have an example of someone being arrested by Chinese intelligence on foreign soil, let alone due to TikTok data?

ochoseis 4y ago
You can read about one called “Operation Fox Hunt” here on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fox_Hunt?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fox_Hunt?wprov=sfti1
rawgabbit 4y ago
The actual tactics underpinning the CCP’s anticorruption campaign are much more unsavory. These include at a minimum surveillance, physical threats, and family intimidation in order to force exiles to return “voluntarily” to China. In October 2020, the US Department of Justice accused eight individuals of acting as illegal agents of China in a multiyear campaign of harassment and stalking in order to coerce an unnamed Chinese individual to return to face trial.68 In 2018, US intelligence officials alleged off the record to Foreign Policy that Chinese agents had beaten and drugged multiple individuals in Australia, returning them to China by boat.69 https://freedomhouse.org/report/transnational-repression/china https://freedomhouse.org/report/transnational-repression/chi...
thevagrant 4y ago
No arrests in this example but still quite concerning.[1] Power can be used without needing to publicly arrest someone [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/22/tiktok-bytedance-workers-fired-data-access-journalists https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/22/tiktok-by...
dixie_land 4y ago
[flagged]

norgie 4y ago

What stops China from just buying this data from data collection companies like the FBI and police do? Seems like that’d be much easier

imgabe 4y ago
Theoretically, export control laws could (not sure if they do). We regulate selling all kinds of things to foreign governments.
sharemywin 4y ago
pr the darkweb?
heavyset_go 4y ago
Wouldn't be surprised if they are compelled not to sell the info by the government. Also wouldn't be surprised if they've been buying it this entire time, either.
rchaud 4y ago
Nothing. It won't be asked at a hearing because it might be embarrassing to reveal that corporations and law enforcement use this against American civlians already. Jan 6th rioters were detected using cell phone geolocation signals as well as video.

roenxi 4y ago

That isn't arguing the "worse" part. Facebook is also going to support, assist, etc, with US national intelligence services. You can be black-bagged anywhere in the world by the US too, they are pretty famous for how far the arm of US law reaches.

lambdasquirrel 4y ago
On the bright side, the U.S. and China aren’t cooperating. If they were that would be a whole other level of fuckery. (Probably the only silver lining of this geopolitical “competition” right now.)
quest88 4y ago
Yes, when required by court order. The USA has a court of laws, proposed by legislatures we vote for. Who knows about China.
- roenxi 4y ago
  Do you have any evidence that supports that being the case in practice? Can you have evidence of it? Whenever we get a peek behind the curtain it generally seems like warrants are not a factor. That belief has to ultimately be a statement of faith. It is basically counting on highly untrustworthy people behaving honestly - they probably aren't. And all the elements of the system are hidden where there is no accountability.
  - remarkEon 4y ago
    It's an appeal to a written system of laws that has continuity. China doesn't have this, it has Xi and the Party. These whataboutisms are tiresome because they're so shallow. They're shallow in that they evoke a criticism of some aspect of how the United States manages itself as a method of deflecting from the quite awful and well evidenced way that CCP runs China.
    - roenxi 4y ago
      How do you expect to compare Google to TikTok without "whataboutisms"? Comparison is whataboutism! It is just a fact that Google and the US intelligence apparatus are more invasive than TikTok and the Chinese. The former combo spy and conspire against almost literally the range of Trump to Afghan goat herders. TikTok can compete with that, but it can't exceed it. If I could pick one, I'd feel much safer being spied on the Chinese than the Americans. They've got much less ability to make my life hell. Look at how far Snowden had to run, and how Assange never ran far enough.

jdietrich 4y ago

Under the ironically-named USA Freedom Act, the US government has essentially the same powers. My country doesn't have an extradition treaty with China, but it does have one with the US. There's no evidence that citizens of my country have ever been disappeared by China and taken to secret prisons, but there's documentary evidence that the US have done exactly that. I'm genuinely trying to think of a good-faith argument for why Chinese tech firms are less trustworthy than American tech firms, but I honestly can't think of one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

vanilla_nut 4y ago
Still a problem from a USA national security standpoint. But absolutely agreed -- as a user, I can't trust any of these governments or companies. The only things I do trust are E2EE services that don't collect unnecessary personal data in the first place.
remarkEon 4y ago
I thought about asking what country you were from, but I realized it doesn't matter. I'm from the United States and I want this app banned. While the things you cite are or could be bad, it's entirely irrelevant to dealing with an app that is demonstrably a psychological control system. You're upset that CIA or US Army spec ops kidnapped people from your country? Imagine the United States injecting a social media system into your country that brainwashes people into thinking that they deserved it. TikTok can do this.
- silveroriole 4y ago
  “Demonstrably” a psychological control system? Go on then, demonstrate it.
- herbst 4y ago
  The US let Meta whatever they want and do all the harmful things to our youths psych. Like increased suicide rates, body issues and much more. I agree with the poster before, I don't see the big difference here