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I hate to be the guy, but slaves are the peak of capitalism. The abolishment of slavery(at least in the west) was a major moral victory in the preservation of h

I hate to be the guy, but slaves are the peak of capitalism. The abolishment of slavery(at least in the west) was a major moral victory in the preservation of human decency, however, it's a solution the free market's been trying to solve ever since. I believe the word "robot" more or less translates to slave.

maxerickson 4y ago
Free markets have government regulation that balances things a little bit. When you say that markets tend towards slavery you may be correct, but that is an unbound market, not one where participants are free to choose what transactions they participate in.
- WorldPeas 4y ago
  even in cases where we can choose, slavery is largely invisible, what's to say the reason the shirt you bought at h&m, or your nike trainers weren't so cheap because they were made using uyghur forced labor. Sure there are "good values" brands, and special labels, but those(sadly) are the exception rather than the norm
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    The people doing forced labor aren't living in a market economy. Of course there is a business in a relatively free market that isn't bothered by that, but the Uyghurs aren't suffering under free market capitalism, they are suffering under the totalitarian government in China.
    - elliotto 4y ago
      I wish the above poster hadn't used Uyghurs as an example because that's a bit more politically complex. But would you argue that when a large business moves into an undeveloped region and sets up a sweatshop with hazardous conditions, the people living there are not compelled to participate in capitalism? What if the owners of the business have been applying international pressure to the government to prevent the introduction of regulation to provide the citizens with safety, a better share of profits, or free market competition? I agree that in the west we generally have the privilege to decline a participation in a free market economy, but this falls apart on the edges of society, which unfortunately comprises of billions of people
      - maxerickson 4y ago
        People that work in industry in places with lax regulation are often very much choosing to do that work. It isn't something we should celebrate of course, but they see it as their best choice. It's probably generally the case that improving conditions for workers would result in productivity increases in those economies, so it is sort of doubly stupid.
        elliotto 4y ago
        I think we agree on the poor conditions / difficulty of the situation but just disagree on our conclusion of the description of the circumstances. I agree that working for these exploitative organisations is their best choice, but I would define this as slavery. If the organisation has the means to provide livable standards, but instead decides to actively lobby against competition and regulation that would make it provide those standards, then this is capturing those workers as slaves. The free market has decided that these individuals will not have the right to exercise their choices, indenturing them to a corporation. They only have the right to work for them, or to starve.
lacoolj 4y ago
This post is going to look real bad on your résumé when Skynet interviews the humans and decides which ones to keep alive
ETH_start 4y ago
Capitalism means a market based on mutual consent, where all individuals are secure in their person and property. The most important economist in the history of Capitalism is Adam Smith, whose first book is titled, The Theory of Moral Sentiment. Capitalism is entirely grounded in moral thought, unlike, say, Communism, which is an ideology, and thus grounded in an ideological narrative. It is no coincidence that Adam Smith - along with every other important thinker of Capitalism, e.g. Frédéric Bastiat - was an avowed opponent of slavery, or that the nations that led the drive to eradicate the institution of slavery from the world were the leading capitalist states, most importantly the British Empire.

maxerickson 4y ago

Free markets have government regulation that balances things a little bit. When you say that markets tend towards slavery you may be correct, but that is an unbound market, not one where participants are free to choose what transactions they participate in.

WorldPeas 4y ago
even in cases where we can choose, slavery is largely invisible, what's to say the reason the shirt you bought at h&m, or your nike trainers weren't so cheap because they were made using uyghur forced labor. Sure there are "good values" brands, and special labels, but those(sadly) are the exception rather than the norm
- maxerickson 4y ago
  The people doing forced labor aren't living in a market economy. Of course there is a business in a relatively free market that isn't bothered by that, but the Uyghurs aren't suffering under free market capitalism, they are suffering under the totalitarian government in China.
  - elliotto 4y ago
    I wish the above poster hadn't used Uyghurs as an example because that's a bit more politically complex. But would you argue that when a large business moves into an undeveloped region and sets up a sweatshop with hazardous conditions, the people living there are not compelled to participate in capitalism? What if the owners of the business have been applying international pressure to the government to prevent the introduction of regulation to provide the citizens with safety, a better share of profits, or free market competition? I agree that in the west we generally have the privilege to decline a participation in a free market economy, but this falls apart on the edges of society, which unfortunately comprises of billions of people
    - maxerickson 4y ago
      People that work in industry in places with lax regulation are often very much choosing to do that work. It isn't something we should celebrate of course, but they see it as their best choice. It's probably generally the case that improving conditions for workers would result in productivity increases in those economies, so it is sort of doubly stupid.
      - elliotto 4y ago
        I think we agree on the poor conditions / difficulty of the situation but just disagree on our conclusion of the description of the circumstances. I agree that working for these exploitative organisations is their best choice, but I would define this as slavery. If the organisation has the means to provide livable standards, but instead decides to actively lobby against competition and regulation that would make it provide those standards, then this is capturing those workers as slaves. The free market has decided that these individuals will not have the right to exercise their choices, indenturing them to a corporation. They only have the right to work for them, or to starve.

lacoolj 4y ago

This post is going to look real bad on your résumé when Skynet interviews the humans and decides which ones to keep alive

ETH_start 4y ago

Capitalism means a market based on mutual consent, where all individuals are secure in their person and property. The most important economist in the history of Capitalism is Adam Smith, whose first book is titled, The Theory of Moral Sentiment. Capitalism is entirely grounded in moral thought, unlike, say, Communism, which is an ideology, and thus grounded in an ideological narrative. It is no coincidence that Adam Smith - along with every other important thinker of Capitalism, e.g. Frédéric Bastiat - was an avowed opponent of slavery, or that the nations that led the drive to eradicate the institution of slavery from the world were the leading capitalist states, most importantly the British Empire.