3 ms·

In the low and mid end there's plenty of competition. Andes, SiFive, Cortus, BA Semi and probably more. Many of them used to offer their own proprietary ISA and

by yaantc 4y ago

In the low and mid end there's plenty of competition. Andes, SiFive, Cortus, BA Semi and probably more. Many of them used to offer their own proprietary ISA and have moved to RISC V to leverage the ecosystem (software and tools). Instead of a semi frozen old GCC version their customers can now use a recent compiler directly from upstream for example. Renesas has started replacing ARM core by RISC V in their new micro-controllers. They still offer their ARM products and will do for a long time, but move new ones to RISC V. ARM's advantage is at the high end. For a high performance core it's key to work closely with TSMC and Samsung on the most advanced nodes, to tune the design to what leading edge processes can do. This is very labor and capital intensive. It definitely gives ARM an advantage against smaller IP providers at the high end. But at the low and mid end? Nope. It's where ARM is easier to replace.

dragontamer 4y ago
> In the low and mid end there's plenty of competition None of these chips you're talking about are on Digikey or Mouser though. I dunno, are they not selling these chips to the big retailers in order to try to cut costs down or something?
- brucehoult 4y ago
  "None of these chips you're talking about are on Digikey or Mouser though" Except Renesas, none of the companies mentioned make chips. Neither does ARM. They license CPU cores to companies that make chips.
- yaantc 4y ago
  I'm not talking about chip makers, but about CPU IP providers. Like ARM. If you say there are not many publicly available products including publicly accessible RISC V cores from those companies I listed compared to ARM, yes this is true. Because they're (for now) mostly used for embedded application, deeply inside complex SoC. Only used by the chip makers developers. A relatively small company like Andes has their IP in over 10 billions SoC today. A lot of it for things like touch screen controllers, but also more complex things now. But I'm not sure you can find a mass product with an accessible RISC V Andes core. Still, public access has already happened with Renesas, and it will likely get more common. People tend to focus on the high end, but the most common in high tech is to attack from below. Take a foothold in the low end because you're cheaper (smaller companies with lower costs can deal with lower prices), build a customer base, then grow from this. Until one day you can attack the high end (we're not there yet IMHO). I have access to these companies roadmap and this is what I see them doing, and it shouldn't be surprising. But this means that at this stage, the majority of RISC V use is invisible to the public. To me this is perfectly normal. Building an ecosystem and maturing a technology like this takes a long time. IMHO we're already at a stage where ARM has real competition in the low and mid end, particularly where there's little dependency to the ISA (embedded, or simple uC programmed in C anyway with no 3rd party binaries included, like Renesas). I think ARM is still safe at the high end though, and it will take some time for RISC V to get there. Chip making is hard, particularly at the high end.

by yaantc 4y ago

dragontamer 4y ago

> In the low and mid end there's plenty of competition None of these chips you're talking about are on Digikey or Mouser though. I dunno, are they not selling these chips to the big retailers in order to try to cut costs down or something?

brucehoult 4y ago
"None of these chips you're talking about are on Digikey or Mouser though" Except Renesas, none of the companies mentioned make chips. Neither does ARM. They license CPU cores to companies that make chips.
yaantc 4y ago
I'm not talking about chip makers, but about CPU IP providers. Like ARM. If you say there are not many publicly available products including publicly accessible RISC V cores from those companies I listed compared to ARM, yes this is true. Because they're (for now) mostly used for embedded application, deeply inside complex SoC. Only used by the chip makers developers. A relatively small company like Andes has their IP in over 10 billions SoC today. A lot of it for things like touch screen controllers, but also more complex things now. But I'm not sure you can find a mass product with an accessible RISC V Andes core. Still, public access has already happened with Renesas, and it will likely get more common. People tend to focus on the high end, but the most common in high tech is to attack from below. Take a foothold in the low end because you're cheaper (smaller companies with lower costs can deal with lower prices), build a customer base, then grow from this. Until one day you can attack the high end (we're not there yet IMHO). I have access to these companies roadmap and this is what I see them doing, and it shouldn't be surprising. But this means that at this stage, the majority of RISC V use is invisible to the public. To me this is perfectly normal. Building an ecosystem and maturing a technology like this takes a long time. IMHO we're already at a stage where ARM has real competition in the low and mid end, particularly where there's little dependency to the ISA (embedded, or simple uC programmed in C anyway with no 3rd party binaries included, like Renesas). I think ARM is still safe at the high end though, and it will take some time for RISC V to get there. Chip making is hard, particularly at the high end.