6 ms·

Can somebody explain to me how banning TikTok is not obviously unconstitutional purely on first amendment grounds?

advisedwang 4y ago
Despite media portrayals, virtually every constitutional question has at the core a conflict where different rights or different parts of the constitution conflict. In that case you can't absolutely follow every constitutional dictum because they are mutually exclusive. To some extent legal principals can be used to resolved these conflicts, but they provide huge maneuvering space for political machinations. In this case, there's a conflict between the first amendment on one side and the congressional power to regulate foreign relations and largely judicially constructed executive powers around national security. Of course there's a very strong legal argument you can make that the first amendment clearly trump the congressional power, and the national security powers are (to me) obvious bullshit from the outset. But this is largely irrelevant because it's much more convenient for all branches of government to pretend that this it's a gray area and decide it how they wish.
inconceivable 4y ago
there's plenty of precedent for just throwing the bill of rights out the window for asian americans. 99% of americans simply don't care, or actively encourage it. the supreme court agrees. look up the case law. so why not? nobody will ever receive any significant pushback for throwing them under the bus whenever it's convenient. they might even say "it's for their own safety." the reality on the ground is the only reality that matters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee <-- taiwanese, lol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Initiative
- Kon-Peki 4y ago
  > throwing the bill of rights out the window for asian americans. 99% of americans simply don't care, or actively encourage it. Since 7.2% of Americans self-identify their ethnicity as Asian, I guess what you are saying is that a minimum of 70-80% of Asian-Americans actively encourage the removal of their own rights. I find that a little hard to believe...
  - inconceivable 4y ago
    i would say that easily 80% of asian americans don't really care about it unless it affects them. in other words, do you think 20% of asian americans are pro-actively doing anything about it?
- RobotToaster 4y ago
  >there's plenty of precedent for just throwing the bill of rights out the window for asian americans. Not just Asian Americans either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954
pessimizer 4y ago
I guess Bills of Attainder aren't real when it's about corporate persons. We'll be banning political parties next.
imgabe 4y ago
The constitution explicitly grants Congress the power to regulate foreign trade. Foreign companies do not have a first amendment right to operate in the US. This has nothing to do with the first amendment.
- raincole 4y ago
  But I thought TikTok is an US company now? Didn't they launch a new company, which is separate from Chinese TikTok, in the US, to avoid this exact situation? Am I conflating things?
layer8 4y ago
I don’t see how banning TikTok would infringe on anyone’s freedom of expression (other than possibly for TikTok’s own self-produced videos). There is no right to distribution over a specific channel.

Despite media portrayals, virtually every constitutional question has at the core a conflict where different rights or different parts of the constitution conflict. In that case you can't absolutely follow every constitutional dictum because they are mutually exclusive. To some extent legal principals can be used to resolved these conflicts, but they provide huge maneuvering space for political machinations. In this case, there's a conflict between the first amendment on one side and the congressional power to regulate foreign relations and largely judicially constructed executive powers around national security. Of course there's a very strong legal argument you can make that the first amendment clearly trump the congressional power, and the national security powers are (to me) obvious bullshit from the outset. But this is largely irrelevant because it's much more convenient for all branches of government to pretend that this it's a gray area and decide it how they wish.

inconceivable 4y ago

there's plenty of precedent for just throwing the bill of rights out the window for asian americans. 99% of americans simply don't care, or actively encourage it. the supreme court agrees. look up the case law. so why not? nobody will ever receive any significant pushback for throwing them under the bus whenever it's convenient. they might even say "it's for their own safety." the reality on the ground is the only reality that matters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee <-- taiwanese, lol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Initiative

Kon-Peki 4y ago
> throwing the bill of rights out the window for asian americans. 99% of americans simply don't care, or actively encourage it. Since 7.2% of Americans self-identify their ethnicity as Asian, I guess what you are saying is that a minimum of 70-80% of Asian-Americans actively encourage the removal of their own rights. I find that a little hard to believe...
- inconceivable 4y ago
  i would say that easily 80% of asian americans don't really care about it unless it affects them. in other words, do you think 20% of asian americans are pro-actively doing anything about it?
RobotToaster 4y ago
>there's plenty of precedent for just throwing the bill of rights out the window for asian americans. Not just Asian Americans either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954

pessimizer 4y ago

I guess Bills of Attainder aren't real when it's about corporate persons. We'll be banning political parties next.

imgabe 4y ago

The constitution explicitly grants Congress the power to regulate foreign trade. Foreign companies do not have a first amendment right to operate in the US. This has nothing to do with the first amendment.

raincole 4y ago
But I thought TikTok is an US company now? Didn't they launch a new company, which is separate from Chinese TikTok, in the US, to avoid this exact situation? Am I conflating things?

layer8 4y ago

I don’t see how banning TikTok would infringe on anyone’s freedom of expression (other than possibly for TikTok’s own self-produced videos). There is no right to distribution over a specific channel.