9 ms·

Yeah, failing to see how TikTok is any different or worse than Facebook or Google. Could someone enlighten me?

by robg 4y ago

everly 4y ago
Common arguments are that those two you listed are American-owned; that China bans US tech giants; that the CCP has outsized control of Chinese companies (and the data that they collect); and that TikTok's algorithm purposefully promotes content that will result in an uneducated, divided population in countries outside of China. I am not saying that those are true or that I agree with them, but those seem to be the typical arguments.
- robg 4y ago
  Really helpful, thank you. Still don’t see the problem, other than the need to educate kids on digital hygiene. But like anything, I bet they already know the harms of overconsumption.
  - rcpt 4y ago
    > kids Not sure it's just kids
    - WeylandYutani 4y ago
      I decided on a "paradigm shift" into a healthy lifestyle about 10 years ago. Cut down on American media and culture. I was an adult who thought drinking coke was normal. Now I drink water.
  - sumedh 4y ago
    > Still don’t see the problem China can access some target in the US who is on tictok and get their realtime location.
    - t-writescode 4y ago
      They said they're not using GPS; and, my iPhone hasn't revealed TikTok asking for my GPS location, so this means if they're tracking location, it's based on preferences, watching times, IP address or something else not GPS-related, all of which are wholely accessible to every single website on the internet, those hosted in China and any other country. Know anyone that uses AliExpress? Or plays Genshin Impact?
      - sumedh 4y ago
        https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-tapes-us-user-data-china-bytedance-access https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-...
- herbst 4y ago
  From a outside perspective content on tiktok is no worse than Facebook, Instagram or Reddit. The main thing you notice about TikToks algorithm is that it's less a echo chamber and more inklusive to alternative content.
- bakuninsbart 4y ago
  To give a rebuttal to these points: 1. China banned Facebook after it refused to cooperate with law enforcement following the Urumqi riots. Google and others decided the cost of following censorship laws was too high compared to the return and decided to retreat. Other American tech giants like Microsoft, Apple and IBM have a presence in China. However unjust China's laws may be, there's a qualitative differences between applying it to all companies in the same way vs. what the US is attempting to do with TikTok. 2. From an American point of view, this strikes true. For the rest of the world there's hardly a difference. If any, the US has proved it is willing to enforce its will globally against non-citizens with all means possible (see fe. Julian Assange). 3. Youtubes algorithm is strongly driven by controversy, Instagram seems to be responsible for a large amount of body dismorphia and depression in young people. I'm all for more research and stricter policies to suppress this, but just claiming things without a shred of evidence isn't helping the discussion along.
henrikschroder 4y ago
They're not bribing US politicians, which is why there is now unprecedented "bipartisan" support for banning TikTok, because we need to protect the children or not.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  > Tiktok's lobbying tops $5.4M in 2022 as it brings its charm offensive to Congress https://www.npr.org/2023/03/22/1165249928/tiktok-congress-hearing-lobbyists-infleuncers https://www.npr.org/2023/03/22/1165249928/tiktok-congress-he... Their head lobbyist (Michael Beckerman) was seated right behind the CEO during testimony. He leads their government relations office in DC.
  - RobotToaster 4y ago
    That's a quarter of what meta/facebook spends, I guess tiktok cheaped out on the politicians they bought.
    - rchaud 4y ago
      Politicians can pick and choose who to offer their venality to. Not a lot to be gained politically from shilling for a Chinese corporation.
fosshogg 4y ago
TikTok is no better or worse than Facebook or Google. US is just mad it can't boss Tik Tok around like they can any other tech giant. Because TikTok has ties to the Chinese government, there's a national security concern about what information they collect and share with China. The whole "save the children" angle is pure optics. These politicians couldn't give a rat's about it but they know the public is so fed up with "toxic" social media they're using the excuse that it's psychologically damaging to children to go after it. The government never seems to place any burden on parenting. But when they're being left out of the spynet is only when they care.
rawgabbit 4y ago
Could someone enlighten me? Chinese 2017 National Security Law Article 7 says "Any organization and citizen shall support, assist and cooperate with national intelligence work in accordance with the law" [1]. This law says TikTok must obey and help the Chinese government national intelligence. The concern is that although you live in Canada, US, Europe; you can still be "arrested" by Chinese police working in hidden police departments in the Canada, US, and Europe [2]. And TikTok will tell them where you are. From the second article: FBI director Christopher Wray told a US Senate hearing in November that attempts by China to set up a police presence on US soil "violates sovereignty and circumvents standard judicial and law enforcement cooperation processes". [1] http://www.npc.gov.cn/npc/c30834/201806/483221713dac4f31bda7f9d951108912.shtml http://www.npc.gov.cn/npc/c30834/201806/483221713dac4f31bda7... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64909560 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64909560
- robg 4y ago
  Do you have an example of someone being arrested by Chinese intelligence on foreign soil, let alone due to TikTok data?
  - ochoseis 4y ago
    You can read about one called “Operation Fox Hunt” here on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fox_Hunt?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fox_Hunt?wprov=sfti1
  - rawgabbit 4y ago
    The actual tactics underpinning the CCP’s anticorruption campaign are much more unsavory. These include at a minimum surveillance, physical threats, and family intimidation in order to force exiles to return “voluntarily” to China. In October 2020, the US Department of Justice accused eight individuals of acting as illegal agents of China in a multiyear campaign of harassment and stalking in order to coerce an unnamed Chinese individual to return to face trial.68 In 2018, US intelligence officials alleged off the record to Foreign Policy that Chinese agents had beaten and drugged multiple individuals in Australia, returning them to China by boat.69 https://freedomhouse.org/report/transnational-repression/china https://freedomhouse.org/report/transnational-repression/chi...
munk-a 4y ago
Because they're "not an American company" - so they make a great target. Now what is an American company? Well, I don't really have a clue, companies certainly aren't patriotic citizens and we have no expectation of that even if they're entirely domestic... but once they're global? Well, then they can just jump their headquarters around to get the most advantageous tax laws and liability. We should hold all social media companies to the same level of accountability because while TikTok might be openly cozy to the chinese government if you think any corporations are on the side of the American people I have a bridge to sell you.
cscurmudgeon 4y ago
CCP is a board member at ByteDance. https://prosperousamerica.org/ccp-takes-board-seat-at-bytedance-time-to-ban-tiktok/ https://prosperousamerica.org/ccp-takes-board-seat-at-byteda... This whole thing is so strange. People in the US were so concerned about Russia running ads for a few thousand dollars in 2016 during the elections but are now ok with TikTok being controlled by CCP?
- spookie 4y ago
  As always, take every comment with a grain of salt. Honestly, I think this is refreshing. If anything, it's an acknowledgement that the info gathered and shared by social media to their respective governments is indeed, very useful. Sure, it might be hypocritical. But it's a win, either way.
juunpp 4y ago
It's not any worse, just that it likely works with the CCP as opposed to the NSA, and the US obviously considers that a threat. I think it'd be more productive for the US Congress to regulate the online space and the (ab)use of people's data/identity regardless of where the company is based in than to downright ban foreign companies. The latter seems rather... un-American.
another_story 4y ago
For me I don't really care if they are better or worse, I'm just tired of Chinese companies milking the open the market while being protected in their own. If these companies want to participate in the other markets then they should lobby their government to open up more.
- rchaud 4y ago
  China and the US are the two most common plaintiffs in WTO cases, so they are not rolling into foreign markets unopposed.
Mizoguchi 4y ago
Here, enlighten yourself https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-drives-high-profile-disappearances-in-china https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-drives-high-profile-... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huawei-helped-create-tech-for-chinas-state-surveillance-and-re-educating-of-uighurs-b0z6vfmj3 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huawei-helped-create-tech...
throwawaymaths 4y ago
While privacy is an issue on TikTok, I would say the more concerning stuff is that they are actively curating speech: they frequently ban content critical of the CCP, promote pro-ccp messaging, and also sometimes they harass journalists using information that has a somewhat reasonable expectation of privacy. There is a suspicion that they bump up divisive content, but that's harder to prove since obviously Facebook and Google do this too. But douyin does the opposite, it bumps up non-divisive content.
- prawn 4y ago
  Surely the concern for the West is less that TikTok influences content within China and more that they can subtly steer a foreign audience?
ericmay 4y ago
It’s very, very simple. So long as China continues to ban US social media companies and search engines, whatever reason they have for doing so is a valid reason for the US and other western countries to respond in kind and ban Chinese social media companies. Not just from a military or security standpoint but also an economic one. If TikTok is “not a threat” then neither is Facebook and Google. End of story.
- sumedh 4y ago
  > So long as China continues to ban US social media companies and search engines Its just bizzare to know that China bans those companies yet US allows Chinese social media companies to run in US.
  - WeylandYutani 4y ago
    Not bizarre. America's ideology is capitalism and free trade. Obviously China never signed up for that.
- t-writescode 4y ago
  Is the pissy-fight back and forth between two world powers worth the 150M people that have gotten more useful news than we have in years; *and* the millions of small businesses that have been able to get off the ground due to TikTok's algorithm helping them find the right audience?
  - lazyeye 4y ago
    Absolutely. Without question.
- ashwagary 4y ago
  >It’s very, very simple. It's not that simple. China has laws that US social media/search engine companies are not willing to follow but AFAICT TikTok abides by every US law that exists.
  - 4y ago
lazyeye 4y ago
In what other trade context would it be ok for one partner to block all access to their own market (Facebook, Twitter etc) whilst still enjoying full access to everybody else's? How is this remotely acceptable?
- rchaud 4y ago
  This is incorrect, Neither are banned in Taiwan, which the US recognizes as part of China.
  - lazyeye 4y ago
    Lol...fairly desperate semantics there.
    - rchaud 4y ago
      The original comment claims that US social networks are banned in China, which they are not. No one is claiming that America has "banned abortion" despite it's unavailable for 1/3 of American women, i.e. those living in the 11 states that have banned it[0]. [0] https://reproductiverights.org/abortion-illegal-11-states/ https://reproductiverights.org/abortion-illegal-11-states/
      - lazyeye 4y ago
        Taiwan is not part of China, period. Nation states have a policy of "strategic ambiguity" as a matter of diplomatic convenience but the US is not considering supplying weaponry to Taiwan because it is part of China. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taiwans-military-us-arms-boost-china-pressure-rcna73027 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taiwans-military-us-arms-...
deafpolygon 4y ago
One main reason that TikTok can be worse is subtle propaganda. There is a very subtle pro-Chinese bias on TikTok and that's beneficial for China in the long term. The more that your rival's population perceives you as a threat, the harder it is to compete against them.
ParanoidShroom 4y ago
Basing on experience and facts I can only say that since TikTok is new and hasn't had many scandals yet, their privacy reviews and processes internally are not mature or not a priority yet compared to other FANG companies that have been burned by it. And why should they prioritize it over growth? I spoke to devs, and they didn't care at all about their privacy reviews. I'm not a TikTok fan, but this behavior was the same as other FANG companies early days. Yet they are being treated different?
WeylandYutani 4y ago
It makes sense when you understand that 1 America is the superpower 2 they want to destroy any and all competition When powers clash things happen. See WW1. At least war is unlikely since both sides have nukes.
schwartzworld 4y ago
Something something china bad
QuadmasterXLII 4y ago
No one is saying it, but this is mostly tit-for-tat punishment for china doing this to US companies
- rchaud 4y ago
  Fomenting civil unrest and disunity should be under the exclusive control of US corporations! /s

Yeah, failing to see how TikTok is any different or worse than Facebook or Google. Could someone enlighten me?

by robg 4y ago

Yeah, failing to see how TikTok is any different or worse than Facebook or Google. Could someone enlighten me?

Common arguments are that those two you listed are American-owned; that China bans US tech giants; that the CCP has outsized control of Chinese companies (and the data that they collect); and that TikTok's algorithm purposefully promotes content that will result in an uneducated, divided population in countries outside of China. I am not saying that those are true or that I agree with them, but those seem to be the typical arguments.

robg 4y ago
Really helpful, thank you. Still don’t see the problem, other than the need to educate kids on digital hygiene. But like anything, I bet they already know the harms of overconsumption.
- rcpt 4y ago
  > kids Not sure it's just kids
  - WeylandYutani 4y ago
    I decided on a "paradigm shift" into a healthy lifestyle about 10 years ago. Cut down on American media and culture. I was an adult who thought drinking coke was normal. Now I drink water.
- sumedh 4y ago
  > Still don’t see the problem China can access some target in the US who is on tictok and get their realtime location.
  - t-writescode 4y ago
    They said they're not using GPS; and, my iPhone hasn't revealed TikTok asking for my GPS location, so this means if they're tracking location, it's based on preferences, watching times, IP address or something else not GPS-related, all of which are wholely accessible to every single website on the internet, those hosted in China and any other country. Know anyone that uses AliExpress? Or plays Genshin Impact?
    - sumedh 4y ago
      https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-tapes-us-user-data-china-bytedance-access https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tiktok-...
herbst 4y ago
From a outside perspective content on tiktok is no worse than Facebook, Instagram or Reddit. The main thing you notice about TikToks algorithm is that it's less a echo chamber and more inklusive to alternative content.
bakuninsbart 4y ago
To give a rebuttal to these points: 1. China banned Facebook after it refused to cooperate with law enforcement following the Urumqi riots. Google and others decided the cost of following censorship laws was too high compared to the return and decided to retreat. Other American tech giants like Microsoft, Apple and IBM have a presence in China. However unjust China's laws may be, there's a qualitative differences between applying it to all companies in the same way vs. what the US is attempting to do with TikTok. 2. From an American point of view, this strikes true. For the rest of the world there's hardly a difference. If any, the US has proved it is willing to enforce its will globally against non-citizens with all means possible (see fe. Julian Assange). 3. Youtubes algorithm is strongly driven by controversy, Instagram seems to be responsible for a large amount of body dismorphia and depression in young people. I'm all for more research and stricter policies to suppress this, but just claiming things without a shred of evidence isn't helping the discussion along.

henrikschroder 4y ago

They're not bribing US politicians, which is why there is now unprecedented "bipartisan" support for banning TikTok, because we need to protect the children or not.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
> Tiktok's lobbying tops $5.4M in 2022 as it brings its charm offensive to Congress https://www.npr.org/2023/03/22/1165249928/tiktok-congress-hearing-lobbyists-infleuncers https://www.npr.org/2023/03/22/1165249928/tiktok-congress-he... Their head lobbyist (Michael Beckerman) was seated right behind the CEO during testimony. He leads their government relations office in DC.
- RobotToaster 4y ago
  That's a quarter of what meta/facebook spends, I guess tiktok cheaped out on the politicians they bought.
  - rchaud 4y ago
    Politicians can pick and choose who to offer their venality to. Not a lot to be gained politically from shilling for a Chinese corporation.

fosshogg 4y ago

TikTok is no better or worse than Facebook or Google. US is just mad it can't boss Tik Tok around like they can any other tech giant. Because TikTok has ties to the Chinese government, there's a national security concern about what information they collect and share with China. The whole "save the children" angle is pure optics. These politicians couldn't give a rat's about it but they know the public is so fed up with "toxic" social media they're using the excuse that it's psychologically damaging to children to go after it. The government never seems to place any burden on parenting. But when they're being left out of the spynet is only when they care.

rawgabbit 4y ago

Could someone enlighten me? Chinese 2017 National Security Law Article 7 says "Any organization and citizen shall support, assist and cooperate with national intelligence work in accordance with the law" [1]. This law says TikTok must obey and help the Chinese government national intelligence. The concern is that although you live in Canada, US, Europe; you can still be "arrested" by Chinese police working in hidden police departments in the Canada, US, and Europe [2]. And TikTok will tell them where you are. From the second article: FBI director Christopher Wray told a US Senate hearing in November that attempts by China to set up a police presence on US soil "violates sovereignty and circumvents standard judicial and law enforcement cooperation processes". [1] http://www.npc.gov.cn/npc/c30834/201806/483221713dac4f31bda7f9d951108912.shtml http://www.npc.gov.cn/npc/c30834/201806/483221713dac4f31bda7... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64909560 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64909560

robg 4y ago
Do you have an example of someone being arrested by Chinese intelligence on foreign soil, let alone due to TikTok data?
- ochoseis 4y ago
  You can read about one called “Operation Fox Hunt” here on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fox_Hunt?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fox_Hunt?wprov=sfti1
- rawgabbit 4y ago
  The actual tactics underpinning the CCP’s anticorruption campaign are much more unsavory. These include at a minimum surveillance, physical threats, and family intimidation in order to force exiles to return “voluntarily” to China. In October 2020, the US Department of Justice accused eight individuals of acting as illegal agents of China in a multiyear campaign of harassment and stalking in order to coerce an unnamed Chinese individual to return to face trial.68 In 2018, US intelligence officials alleged off the record to Foreign Policy that Chinese agents had beaten and drugged multiple individuals in Australia, returning them to China by boat.69 https://freedomhouse.org/report/transnational-repression/china https://freedomhouse.org/report/transnational-repression/chi...

munk-a 4y ago

Because they're "not an American company" - so they make a great target. Now what is an American company? Well, I don't really have a clue, companies certainly aren't patriotic citizens and we have no expectation of that even if they're entirely domestic... but once they're global? Well, then they can just jump their headquarters around to get the most advantageous tax laws and liability. We should hold all social media companies to the same level of accountability because while TikTok might be openly cozy to the chinese government if you think any corporations are on the side of the American people I have a bridge to sell you.

cscurmudgeon 4y ago

CCP is a board member at ByteDance. https://prosperousamerica.org/ccp-takes-board-seat-at-bytedance-time-to-ban-tiktok/ https://prosperousamerica.org/ccp-takes-board-seat-at-byteda... This whole thing is so strange. People in the US were so concerned about Russia running ads for a few thousand dollars in 2016 during the elections but are now ok with TikTok being controlled by CCP?

spookie 4y ago
As always, take every comment with a grain of salt. Honestly, I think this is refreshing. If anything, it's an acknowledgement that the info gathered and shared by social media to their respective governments is indeed, very useful. Sure, it might be hypocritical. But it's a win, either way.

juunpp 4y ago

It's not any worse, just that it likely works with the CCP as opposed to the NSA, and the US obviously considers that a threat. I think it'd be more productive for the US Congress to regulate the online space and the (ab)use of people's data/identity regardless of where the company is based in than to downright ban foreign companies. The latter seems rather... un-American.

another_story 4y ago

For me I don't really care if they are better or worse, I'm just tired of Chinese companies milking the open the market while being protected in their own. If these companies want to participate in the other markets then they should lobby their government to open up more.

rchaud 4y ago
China and the US are the two most common plaintiffs in WTO cases, so they are not rolling into foreign markets unopposed.

Mizoguchi 4y ago

Here, enlighten yourself https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-drives-high-profile-disappearances-in-china https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-drives-high-profile-... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huawei-helped-create-tech-for-chinas-state-surveillance-and-re-educating-of-uighurs-b0z6vfmj3 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huawei-helped-create-tech...

throwawaymaths 4y ago

While privacy is an issue on TikTok, I would say the more concerning stuff is that they are actively curating speech: they frequently ban content critical of the CCP, promote pro-ccp messaging, and also sometimes they harass journalists using information that has a somewhat reasonable expectation of privacy. There is a suspicion that they bump up divisive content, but that's harder to prove since obviously Facebook and Google do this too. But douyin does the opposite, it bumps up non-divisive content.

prawn 4y ago
Surely the concern for the West is less that TikTok influences content within China and more that they can subtly steer a foreign audience?

ericmay 4y ago

It’s very, very simple. So long as China continues to ban US social media companies and search engines, whatever reason they have for doing so is a valid reason for the US and other western countries to respond in kind and ban Chinese social media companies. Not just from a military or security standpoint but also an economic one. If TikTok is “not a threat” then neither is Facebook and Google. End of story.

sumedh 4y ago
> So long as China continues to ban US social media companies and search engines Its just bizzare to know that China bans those companies yet US allows Chinese social media companies to run in US.
- WeylandYutani 4y ago
  Not bizarre. America's ideology is capitalism and free trade. Obviously China never signed up for that.
t-writescode 4y ago
Is the pissy-fight back and forth between two world powers worth the 150M people that have gotten more useful news than we have in years; *and* the millions of small businesses that have been able to get off the ground due to TikTok's algorithm helping them find the right audience?
- lazyeye 4y ago
  Absolutely. Without question.
ashwagary 4y ago
>It’s very, very simple. It's not that simple. China has laws that US social media/search engine companies are not willing to follow but AFAICT TikTok abides by every US law that exists.
- 4y ago

lazyeye 4y ago

In what other trade context would it be ok for one partner to block all access to their own market (Facebook, Twitter etc) whilst still enjoying full access to everybody else's? How is this remotely acceptable?

rchaud 4y ago
This is incorrect, Neither are banned in Taiwan, which the US recognizes as part of China.
- lazyeye 4y ago
  Lol...fairly desperate semantics there.
  - rchaud 4y ago
    The original comment claims that US social networks are banned in China, which they are not. No one is claiming that America has "banned abortion" despite it's unavailable for 1/3 of American women, i.e. those living in the 11 states that have banned it[0]. [0] https://reproductiverights.org/abortion-illegal-11-states/ https://reproductiverights.org/abortion-illegal-11-states/
    - lazyeye 4y ago
      Taiwan is not part of China, period. Nation states have a policy of "strategic ambiguity" as a matter of diplomatic convenience but the US is not considering supplying weaponry to Taiwan because it is part of China. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taiwans-military-us-arms-boost-china-pressure-rcna73027 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/taiwans-military-us-arms-...

deafpolygon 4y ago

One main reason that TikTok can be worse is subtle propaganda. There is a very subtle pro-Chinese bias on TikTok and that's beneficial for China in the long term. The more that your rival's population perceives you as a threat, the harder it is to compete against them.

ParanoidShroom 4y ago

Basing on experience and facts I can only say that since TikTok is new and hasn't had many scandals yet, their privacy reviews and processes internally are not mature or not a priority yet compared to other FANG companies that have been burned by it. And why should they prioritize it over growth? I spoke to devs, and they didn't care at all about their privacy reviews. I'm not a TikTok fan, but this behavior was the same as other FANG companies early days. Yet they are being treated different?

WeylandYutani 4y ago

It makes sense when you understand that 1 America is the superpower 2 they want to destroy any and all competition When powers clash things happen. See WW1. At least war is unlikely since both sides have nukes.

schwartzworld 4y ago

Something something china bad

QuadmasterXLII 4y ago

No one is saying it, but this is mostly tit-for-tat punishment for china doing this to US companies

rchaud 4y ago
Fomenting civil unrest and disunity should be under the exclusive control of US corporations! /s