4 ms·

> Some of the material that was available in school libraries shocked even me as a gay man. Here are two pages from a book (Gender Queer) that caused a bunch of

> Some of the material that was available in school libraries shocked even me as a gay man. Here are two pages from a book (Gender Queer) that caused a bunch of this controversy: > (Caution: these links might be NSFW, but they are blurred) > https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen-Shot-2023-03-09-at-42518-PM.jpg https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... > https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen-Shot-2023-03-09-at-40014-PM.jpg https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/Screen... > If a parent wanted to give this book to their child at an appropriate age, that'd be fine, but just hanging out on a shelf at primary schools with very young kids seems like too much. > I really wish primary schools would focus on the basics: reading, mathematics, writing. There are too many educators that are trying to mold them into indoctrination facilities for politics and new theories of identity. There is plenty of time to do that at university. I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child. Also what you're leaving out is that behind the pixelation isn't a penis but a strap on. The second image isn't contained in the book at all. Stop spreading misinformation.

zdragnar 4y ago
> No sane educator or library person... That's the problem: https://www.wlky.com/article/gender-queer-book-louisville-jcps-libraries/41393659 https://www.wlky.com/article/gender-queer-book-louisville-jc... https://foxchattanooga.com/news/nation-world/high-school-librarian-promotes-gender-queer-book-to-students-on-her-tiktok https://foxchattanooga.com/news/nation-world/high-school-lib... https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2022/05/10/lgbtq-memoir-gender-queer-stay-hudson-high-school-library/9675218002/ https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2022/05/10/lgbtq-me... https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/3673798-maine-school-district-votes-against-removal-of-one-of-the-nations-most-challenged-books/ https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclu... https://wgme.com/news/local/turner-community-members-weigh-in-high-school-controversial-book-gender-queer-a-memoir https://wgme.com/news/local/turner-community-members-weigh-i... There's plenty more, and even more that had it but were forced to remove it after parent backlash.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  >>> If a parent wanted to give this book to their child at an appropriate age, that'd be fine, but just hanging out on a shelf at primary schools with very young kids seems like too much. >> I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child. > That's the problem: <lists articles> The first article is about 2 high schools. The second article is about a high school. The third article is about a high school. The fourth article is about a high school. The fifth article is also about a... wait for it!... a high school. High schools are not primary schools and high schoolers are not young children. (Also: the whole conversation is hilariously non-unique to libraries. 90% of male teens watch porn, and that's probably an under-estimate given that porn is embarrassing/stigmatizing... I promise you there are exactly zero high schoolers in this entire country who have access to this book in their school library who do not also have infinitely easier access to near-infinite amounts of actual porn.)
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > (Also: the whole conversation is hilariously non-unique to libraries. 90% of male teens watch porn, and that's probably an under-estimate given that porn is embarrassing/stigmatizing... I promise you there are exactly zero high schoolers in this entire country who have access to this book in their school library who do not also have infinitely easier access to near-infinite amounts of actual porn.) So should the high school library have a hentai section next to the manga? Hustlers on the magazine rack next to Newsweek? Lots of teens vape, so no one should have a problem with vape juice vending machines in the cafeteria, right? Wouldn't it make sense for the school district to have a PornHub subscription to supplement ProQuest? The fact that teens do some thing does not at all imply it's appropriate for a school setting.
    - thwayunion 4y ago
      There is a clear difference between Hustler and a graphic novel that contains some sexual representations. You are employing an old and tired strategy: latching onto any lewd expression and then dismissing the rest of the work whole cloth as purely pornographic. This is exactly the same strategy as was used in e.g. the Howl obscenity trial [1]. Anyways, I reject the premise. These books aren't attacked because they contain pornographic scenes. These books are attacked because of the people, identities, and viewpoints they represent and affirm. It's about bigotry, not the kids. As evidenced by the fact that these comments even crop up on articles such as this one, where the article isn't even about school libraries [2]. Sex and sexuality are deeply important parts of being human and it's possible to have uncensored discussion of this part of humanity without reaching for Hustler or hentai. I'm saddened that there are apparently people who aren't able to distinguish between uncensored discussion and straight up porn. Who cannot read or think or talk about sex without their brains pulling up hentai and pin-up girl style pornography. What an impoverished experience of humanity these people must have. No wonder they are so angry all the time. [1] https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=The_Howl_Obscenity_Trial https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=The_Howl_Obscenity_T... [2] See https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebPaymentsQ1-Q2.pdf https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebP... and https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebPaymentsQ3-Q4.pdf https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebP...; $0.00 of the funds discussed in this article go to school libraries.
tablespoon 4y ago
> I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child. It doesn't belong in a high school library either. I thought they were exaggerating when they said it that book was pornography, but holy shit it was literally true. What's next? A hentai section in the school library next to the manga?
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Parents who don't like what their school libraries stock should lobby their school board, vote for school board members who share their views, and maybe even run for school board. There's a whole nice, approachable, local body to deal with all this, basically everywhere in the US. It's arguably one of the closest-to-the-people and easiest-for-constituents-to-influence governing bodies that exists in this country. [EDIT] "Wait, so why's that not what the outlets and politicians who are complaining about this, are advising as the right way to approach this?" because the entire point of making this non-issue an issue in the first place was to boost state and national level candidates, not to do anything useful or appropriate—a state governor can't grandstand about "get mad, and go... um... vote in your school board elections!" in a way that'll be effective at building their national profile or driving broader GOTV for their side.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > Parents who don't like what their school libraries stock should lobby their school board, vote for school board members who share their views, and maybe even run for school board. Maybe they should do that too (and I believe that's actually not uncommon), but it doesn't preclude or de-legitimize other political action to address the problem. In any case, tactical criticism such as yours is almost always noise. It usually amounts to a veiled instruction to surrender, and in any case would be constructed against any tactic chosen (e.g. "whatever it is you're doing, it's not the right way and you should stop and do some other thing). Also, opponents are motivated to give poor tactical advice and typically do so. > because the entire point of making this non-issue an issue in the first place was to boost state and national level candidates, not to do anything useful or appropriate Come on. All sides are grandstanding all the time nowadays, even on this particular issue. Complaints about it are almost always soaked with myside bias.

zdragnar 4y ago

> No sane educator or library person... That's the problem: https://www.wlky.com/article/gender-queer-book-louisville-jcps-libraries/41393659 https://www.wlky.com/article/gender-queer-book-louisville-jc... https://foxchattanooga.com/news/nation-world/high-school-librarian-promotes-gender-queer-book-to-students-on-her-tiktok https://foxchattanooga.com/news/nation-world/high-school-lib... https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2022/05/10/lgbtq-memoir-gender-queer-stay-hudson-high-school-library/9675218002/ https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2022/05/10/lgbtq-me... https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/3673798-maine-school-district-votes-against-removal-of-one-of-the-nations-most-challenged-books/ https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclu... https://wgme.com/news/local/turner-community-members-weigh-in-high-school-controversial-book-gender-queer-a-memoir https://wgme.com/news/local/turner-community-members-weigh-i... There's plenty more, and even more that had it but were forced to remove it after parent backlash.

thwayunion 4y ago
>>> If a parent wanted to give this book to their child at an appropriate age, that'd be fine, but just hanging out on a shelf at primary schools with very young kids seems like too much. >> I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child. > That's the problem: <lists articles> The first article is about 2 high schools. The second article is about a high school. The third article is about a high school. The fourth article is about a high school. The fifth article is also about a... wait for it!... a high school. High schools are not primary schools and high schoolers are not young children. (Also: the whole conversation is hilariously non-unique to libraries. 90% of male teens watch porn, and that's probably an under-estimate given that porn is embarrassing/stigmatizing... I promise you there are exactly zero high schoolers in this entire country who have access to this book in their school library who do not also have infinitely easier access to near-infinite amounts of actual porn.)
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > (Also: the whole conversation is hilariously non-unique to libraries. 90% of male teens watch porn, and that's probably an under-estimate given that porn is embarrassing/stigmatizing... I promise you there are exactly zero high schoolers in this entire country who have access to this book in their school library who do not also have infinitely easier access to near-infinite amounts of actual porn.) So should the high school library have a hentai section next to the manga? Hustlers on the magazine rack next to Newsweek? Lots of teens vape, so no one should have a problem with vape juice vending machines in the cafeteria, right? Wouldn't it make sense for the school district to have a PornHub subscription to supplement ProQuest? The fact that teens do some thing does not at all imply it's appropriate for a school setting.
  - thwayunion 4y ago
    There is a clear difference between Hustler and a graphic novel that contains some sexual representations. You are employing an old and tired strategy: latching onto any lewd expression and then dismissing the rest of the work whole cloth as purely pornographic. This is exactly the same strategy as was used in e.g. the Howl obscenity trial [1]. Anyways, I reject the premise. These books aren't attacked because they contain pornographic scenes. These books are attacked because of the people, identities, and viewpoints they represent and affirm. It's about bigotry, not the kids. As evidenced by the fact that these comments even crop up on articles such as this one, where the article isn't even about school libraries [2]. Sex and sexuality are deeply important parts of being human and it's possible to have uncensored discussion of this part of humanity without reaching for Hustler or hentai. I'm saddened that there are apparently people who aren't able to distinguish between uncensored discussion and straight up porn. Who cannot read or think or talk about sex without their brains pulling up hentai and pin-up girl style pornography. What an impoverished experience of humanity these people must have. No wonder they are so angry all the time. [1] https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=The_Howl_Obscenity_Trial https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=The_Howl_Obscenity_T... [2] See https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebPaymentsQ1-Q2.pdf https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebP... and https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebPaymentsQ3-Q4.pdf https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/LibraryDevelopment/FY22WebP...; $0.00 of the funds discussed in this article go to school libraries.

tablespoon 4y ago

> I've read that book and it's not aimed at children. No sane educator or library person would offer that to a young child. It doesn't belong in a high school library either. I thought they were exaggerating when they said it that book was pornography, but holy shit it was literally true. What's next? A hentai section in the school library next to the manga?

yamtaddle 4y ago
Parents who don't like what their school libraries stock should lobby their school board, vote for school board members who share their views, and maybe even run for school board. There's a whole nice, approachable, local body to deal with all this, basically everywhere in the US. It's arguably one of the closest-to-the-people and easiest-for-constituents-to-influence governing bodies that exists in this country. [EDIT] "Wait, so why's that not what the outlets and politicians who are complaining about this, are advising as the right way to approach this?" because the entire point of making this non-issue an issue in the first place was to boost state and national level candidates, not to do anything useful or appropriate—a state governor can't grandstand about "get mad, and go... um... vote in your school board elections!" in a way that'll be effective at building their national profile or driving broader GOTV for their side.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > Parents who don't like what their school libraries stock should lobby their school board, vote for school board members who share their views, and maybe even run for school board. Maybe they should do that too (and I believe that's actually not uncommon), but it doesn't preclude or de-legitimize other political action to address the problem. In any case, tactical criticism such as yours is almost always noise. It usually amounts to a veiled instruction to surrender, and in any case would be constructed against any tactic chosen (e.g. "whatever it is you're doing, it's not the right way and you should stop and do some other thing). Also, opponents are motivated to give poor tactical advice and typically do so. > because the entire point of making this non-issue an issue in the first place was to boost state and national level candidates, not to do anything useful or appropriate Come on. All sides are grandstanding all the time nowadays, even on this particular issue. Complaints about it are almost always soaked with myside bias.