5 ms·

I'd be curios to know how well someone like McCarthy (and specifically his new releases) sells these days. Similarly, another one of my all-time favorites, Del

I'd be curios to know how well someone like McCarthy (and specifically his new releases) sells these days. Similarly, another one of my all-time favorites, Delilo, has released several novels following the success of his opus Underworld but it doesn't seem like many of them are finding much of an audience anymore. I don't see anything out of some of that 80s-90s literature style, the stuff that got me into "reading for fun," making many best seller / best of the year lists anymore. Suppose it comes naturally as audience, culture, and taste all shift, but it's also a little sad for a fan like myself.

thebooktocome 4y ago
The reason you don’t see that style anymore is, more or less, because publishers stopped marketing it in favor of novels that appeal to the lowest common denominator and every passing fad. The English-speaking book world is controlled by four or five massive publishers who are inherently profit-seeking, and only incidentally art-seeking.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  If you like low-reading-level fiction in YA-style (multi-genre—romance, sci-fi, fantasy, fiction), romance, or a couple crime-related genres, there's probably never been a better time to be a reader. Outside that... it's rather spottier.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    I’m not sure about that. The sci-fi and fantasy books I’ve been reading from the past decade are pretty damn solid, or at least plenty of them are. When I was younger I went through the “great novels” in sci-fi—I was even methodically going through the Hugo and Nebula winners at one point—so I think I have a decent point of reference. Quotes around “great novels” because I don’t want to equate greatness with awards. Literary fiction is really just genre fiction that people pretend is not genre fiction. Kind of like how saying “I’m not into politics” is, itself, political in nature.
    - jhbadger 4y ago
      But what is the "genre" of literary fiction? It's far too broad compared recognized genres like science fiction. That being said, there is an annoying trend of literary authors writing science fiction books (McCarthy's "The Road", most of Margaret Atwood's books) and they and the literary establishment vocally denying that they are SF because they are Very Serious Works by Important Authors.
      - klodolph 4y ago
        > But what is the "genre" of literary fiction? It's far too broad compared recognized genres like science fiction. How are you measuring “broadness” here? My experience with literary fiction is that it is as much a genre as sci-fi, mystery, or romance. It has its own clichés, as well as novels that avoid or deconstruct those clichés. The only thing I can think of as being substantially different is the cultural attitudes towards literary fiction, and the curious insistence that some people have that literary fiction is not a genre. I don’t see any justification for calling it “not a genre” other than argument which specifically defines “genre” in a way to exclude literary fiction. I think if we sat down and tried to come up with a definition of “genre” that includes sci-fi, mystery, romance, and western, but excludes literary fiction, I would find a problem with the definition.
      - astrange 4y ago
        Kazuo Ishiguro won a Nobel for writing an SF novel. Although the New Yorker did try to claim it wasn't SF, I think most of the other reviews accepted it.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  Have you read Piranesi by Susannah Clark (2020)? Categorized as a fantasy novel, but with even the smallest insight, one can see it is not a fantasy novel but a metaphor.
  - cgh 4y ago
    Have an upvote. Great book.
  - thebooktocome 4y ago
    Yes, according to my journal I gave it a three of five. I recall it being a pedestrian (heh) unreliable narrator story driven by a Borges trope setting.
  - Pamar 4y ago
    Seconded!
  - astrange 4y ago
    Well, it can't be a fantasy novel, because Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is the only fantasy novel ever written. Everything else is a Tolkien pastiche.
- SCAQTony 4y ago
  Same with music, cinema, theater, and fine art! Yes, fine art, too.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Cinema's doing great. I can't even keep up with the rate of release of likely-to-be-worth-a-watch movies, and I'm pretty sure I watch more movies than the average American.
    - karaterobot 4y ago
      There is a drought of funding for movies which are not either adaptations of existing IP, or horror movies. If this is your bag, you're in luck. Otherwise, you have somewhat limited viewing options compared to even ten years ago, forget about 30. The original comment was talking about "high brow" fare, remember.
      - yamtaddle 4y ago
        Hahaha, I expected the criticism of my comment to be that too much of what I was counting as good is "high brow", in fact. Too artsy-fartsy. Leaning too much toward "The Green Knight" and not enough toward "Jaws". [EDIT] Here, lemme just list the 2022 movies that I think were worth a watch if you're at all into the kind of thing they were doing: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever Glass Onion Top Gun: Maverick Bullet Train All Quiet on the Western Front Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio Crimes of the Future Death on the Nile Everything Everywhere All at Once White Noise Nope Prey The Sadness You Won't Be Alone Dual The Northman The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent (arguably just a less-exciting RRR, but hey, it makes up for it by also being shorter and non-horror comedy *is* a bit weak lately, so it gets in) Watcher Dashcam (one of the most interesting movies I've seen in a long time—you may hate it, but you'll feel *something*, damnit!) The Banshees of Inisherin This is just ones I've seen (I usually manage, like, 1/2 of the films in a year that I want to watch, at best) and excluding a few that did in fact suck or that I didn't think quite merited inclusion (e.g. The Menu) or that are good for what they are but are pretty narrow in appeal (Violent Night). Like, I hear Cyrano is great, Emily the Criminal, Bodies Bodies Bodies, The Whale, and a bunch of others, but haven't made it to them yet (and, inevitably, I'll end up never watching some of them). "Quite a few of those are sequels, remakes, or adaptations! White Noise was a book! Death on the Nile! One of those is a marvel movie!" yeah, I know—good luck finding an era in Hollywood when a ton of the films, and even a ton of the good films, weren't such. I reject that as, specifically, a complaint about this moment in cinema (it has more merit as a criticism of cinema in general)
cgh 4y ago
Generally speaking, I'd say the novel of ideas is in retreat. Try to imagine W.G. Sebald's "The Rings of Saturn" getting published today. Or basically anything by Thomas Bernhard, one of the great literary weirdos. I can't quite put my finger on why this is though.

thebooktocome 4y ago

The reason you don’t see that style anymore is, more or less, because publishers stopped marketing it in favor of novels that appeal to the lowest common denominator and every passing fad. The English-speaking book world is controlled by four or five massive publishers who are inherently profit-seeking, and only incidentally art-seeking.

yamtaddle 4y ago
If you like low-reading-level fiction in YA-style (multi-genre—romance, sci-fi, fantasy, fiction), romance, or a couple crime-related genres, there's probably never been a better time to be a reader. Outside that... it's rather spottier.
- klodolph 4y ago
  I’m not sure about that. The sci-fi and fantasy books I’ve been reading from the past decade are pretty damn solid, or at least plenty of them are. When I was younger I went through the “great novels” in sci-fi—I was even methodically going through the Hugo and Nebula winners at one point—so I think I have a decent point of reference. Quotes around “great novels” because I don’t want to equate greatness with awards. Literary fiction is really just genre fiction that people pretend is not genre fiction. Kind of like how saying “I’m not into politics” is, itself, political in nature.
  - jhbadger 4y ago
    But what is the "genre" of literary fiction? It's far too broad compared recognized genres like science fiction. That being said, there is an annoying trend of literary authors writing science fiction books (McCarthy's "The Road", most of Margaret Atwood's books) and they and the literary establishment vocally denying that they are SF because they are Very Serious Works by Important Authors.
    - klodolph 4y ago
      > But what is the "genre" of literary fiction? It's far too broad compared recognized genres like science fiction. How are you measuring “broadness” here? My experience with literary fiction is that it is as much a genre as sci-fi, mystery, or romance. It has its own clichés, as well as novels that avoid or deconstruct those clichés. The only thing I can think of as being substantially different is the cultural attitudes towards literary fiction, and the curious insistence that some people have that literary fiction is not a genre. I don’t see any justification for calling it “not a genre” other than argument which specifically defines “genre” in a way to exclude literary fiction. I think if we sat down and tried to come up with a definition of “genre” that includes sci-fi, mystery, romance, and western, but excludes literary fiction, I would find a problem with the definition.
    - astrange 4y ago
      Kazuo Ishiguro won a Nobel for writing an SF novel. Although the New Yorker did try to claim it wasn't SF, I think most of the other reviews accepted it.
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
Have you read Piranesi by Susannah Clark (2020)? Categorized as a fantasy novel, but with even the smallest insight, one can see it is not a fantasy novel but a metaphor.
- cgh 4y ago
  Have an upvote. Great book.
- thebooktocome 4y ago
  Yes, according to my journal I gave it a three of five. I recall it being a pedestrian (heh) unreliable narrator story driven by a Borges trope setting.
- Pamar 4y ago
  Seconded!
- astrange 4y ago
  Well, it can't be a fantasy novel, because Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is the only fantasy novel ever written. Everything else is a Tolkien pastiche.
SCAQTony 4y ago
Same with music, cinema, theater, and fine art! Yes, fine art, too.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Cinema's doing great. I can't even keep up with the rate of release of likely-to-be-worth-a-watch movies, and I'm pretty sure I watch more movies than the average American.
  - karaterobot 4y ago
    There is a drought of funding for movies which are not either adaptations of existing IP, or horror movies. If this is your bag, you're in luck. Otherwise, you have somewhat limited viewing options compared to even ten years ago, forget about 30. The original comment was talking about "high brow" fare, remember.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      Hahaha, I expected the criticism of my comment to be that too much of what I was counting as good is "high brow", in fact. Too artsy-fartsy. Leaning too much toward "The Green Knight" and not enough toward "Jaws". [EDIT] Here, lemme just list the 2022 movies that I think were worth a watch if you're at all into the kind of thing they were doing: Black Panther: Wakanda Forever Glass Onion Top Gun: Maverick Bullet Train All Quiet on the Western Front Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio Crimes of the Future Death on the Nile Everything Everywhere All at Once White Noise Nope Prey The Sadness You Won't Be Alone Dual The Northman The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent (arguably just a less-exciting RRR, but hey, it makes up for it by also being shorter and non-horror comedy *is* a bit weak lately, so it gets in) Watcher Dashcam (one of the most interesting movies I've seen in a long time—you may hate it, but you'll feel *something*, damnit!) The Banshees of Inisherin This is just ones I've seen (I usually manage, like, 1/2 of the films in a year that I want to watch, at best) and excluding a few that did in fact suck or that I didn't think quite merited inclusion (e.g. The Menu) or that are good for what they are but are pretty narrow in appeal (Violent Night). Like, I hear Cyrano is great, Emily the Criminal, Bodies Bodies Bodies, The Whale, and a bunch of others, but haven't made it to them yet (and, inevitably, I'll end up never watching some of them). "Quite a few of those are sequels, remakes, or adaptations! White Noise was a book! Death on the Nile! One of those is a marvel movie!" yeah, I know—good luck finding an era in Hollywood when a ton of the films, and even a ton of the good films, weren't such. I reject that as, specifically, a complaint about this moment in cinema (it has more merit as a criticism of cinema in general)

cgh 4y ago

Generally speaking, I'd say the novel of ideas is in retreat. Try to imagine W.G. Sebald's "The Rings of Saturn" getting published today. Or basically anything by Thomas Bernhard, one of the great literary weirdos. I can't quite put my finger on why this is though.