7 ms·

Barbados 4–2 Grenada

151 points by thazework 4y ago

Waterluvian 4y ago
SBNation did a great little video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbuD-6BbnQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbuD-6BbnQw I recommend the entire "Weird Rules" series from that channel. Not only is it amusing, but it's filled with examples of accidentally creating wrong incentives for your users-- er... players.
- mbauman 4y ago
  I wish they'd just show the footage of the 3 minutes at the end of regulation time. They showed _some_ footage, but not what I'd think would be the most interesting parts! I think the only online footage of the game is here, just including clips of Grenada's goal at 83 minutes, Barbados' own goal, and the golden goal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlqfhLwBnE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlqfhLwBnE
  - bigodbiel 4y ago
    thank you, that was really funny
a4isms 4y ago
This is hardly the first such weird outcome for a match that reflects a larger strategy of advancing in a tournament rather than simply attempting to win the match. It has been an ongoing scandal that teams collude to fix world cup matches during the qualifying rounds to ensure they both get a favourable position in the knockout rounds. That is considered cheating in soccer, but if you look at a sport like cycling, it is common for "rival" teams to team up and work together to chase down a breakaway, just as it is common for "rival" members of a breakaway or echelon to cooperate to beat everyone else. Why is one "match-fixing" and the other "the beauty of the sport?" Nothing more than expectations.
- felipelemos 4y ago
  This was not a match fix, and it is not considered cheat, although you could say it is unsportsmanlike.
  - a4isms 4y ago
    Cheating, unsportsmanlike... The world is full of things that are legal but considered odious. Ultimately, if a sport becomes dominated by winning-at-the-expense-of-fan-enjoyment, it gets into trouble, so either the rules need another bug fix, or the sport evolves so that fans come to accept the behaviour as part of how the game is played. In cycling, fans consider the wheeling and dealing within the peloton of who works, who doesn't work, and who actively disrupts the work as part of what makes the sport interesting. In soccer, fans protest and throw things onto the field when two teams play, one scores a goal, and then for the rest of the game both teams pass the ball around without trying to do any more scoring. Is it cheating when both teams coöperate but simply enterprising use of the rules when one team attempts to score an own goal and the other team is forced to defend both goals? Regardless of the fine print in the rules, the larger issue is what the fans expect from a soccer match.
    - Lio 4y ago
      True but cycling fans would consider it unsportsmanlike for a rival to attack when the GC leader is taking a piss or has a mechanical breakdown, even though that's perfectly within the rules.
  - bigodbiel 4y ago
    Technically it is match manipulation by most association regulations, even if not for financial gains. But it has always been part of the meta-game in such competitions, though this case was too extreme!
  - Kon-Peki 4y ago
    > although you could say it is unsportsmanlike. I don’t think anyone rational would agree that it was unsportsmanlike. The situation was very clear, if they won by a single goal their season was over. The goal to make it 2-1 occurred in the 83rd minute and they didn’t adopt this strategy until the 87th minute. In those intervening 4 minutes they attempted to score and restore their 2-goal lead. There are other examples of locally detrimental behavior that aims for strategic advantage, such as the intentional walk in baseball. Or that sometimes in football/soccer a team will intentionally kick the ball out of bounds to stop play because of an injury to a player, and the other team responds afterward by throwing the ball in to the other team or kicking it out themselves.
dzonga 4y ago
the underlying story in this is incentives determine behavior.
- whateveracct 4y ago
  They are definitely one thing that does
- dfxm12 4y ago
  Talk about incentives... In the NBA, the commissioner could fine a team for resting players. This was because of a game where a team, the San Antonio Spurs, which was full of older players and was doing well enough in the standings, wanted to give their older stars a rest due to the back to back schedule, but the league didn't want this. The Spurs were incentivized to rest their players & avoid injuries because it's a long season. However, the game happened to be on National TV and the league and its media partners are incentivized to have both teams' stars on the court! See also, tanking (which is really hard to define) for a better draft pick. It's funny to me to accuse bad teams of losing on purpose... https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2735734-nba-reportedly-passes-anti-tanking-draft-reform-player-resting-rules https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2735734-nba-reportedly-p...
  - pmontra 4y ago
    Or possibly cheating the Balance of Performance in Le Mans https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/le-mans-a-question-of-balance-as-porsche-cries-foul-over-ford-gt-on-eve-of-race/news-story/4db82d44656209bfafa33a46b5f054f7 https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/le-mans-a-question-o...
- lo_zamoyski 4y ago
  s/determine/encourage/
madcaptenor 4y ago
See also the Disgrace of Gijón (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón). This is between West Germany and Austria, the last match in a four-team round-robin group in the 1982 World Cup. Before this match it was clear that if West Germany won by 1 or 2 goals, West Germany and Austria would both advance; otherwise one of those teams would advance along with Algeria. You can guess what happens: West Germany scores a goal and then both teams stop trying. Since then, in the World Cup the two final matches of the group start at the same time. This is probably why the 48-team World Cup starting in 2026 will have 12 groups of 4 instead of 16 groups of 3 - there are similar opportunities for collusion in the final match of a three-team group, and no easy fix.
- dfxm12 4y ago
  Just spit balling, one fix could be to just skip the group stage and go right to a big knockout stage, ala domestic cups. That seems too obvious/simple though, so I'm sure there's some reason why they don't do it this way. Maybe they want every country to have a minimum number of games... Having a longer group stage will probably make these situation less likely as the best teams will pull ahead, but I don't think we want the players to play so many more games.
  - madcaptenor 4y ago
    But the group stage won't be any longer - they're still groups of 4, so each team still plays three group games. However there might be more "pulling away" in a 48-team World Cup than in a 32-team World Cup just because there will be weaker teams in those groups for the strongest teams to beat up on.
    - dfxm12 4y ago
      By making the group stage longer, I meant that a team would play each other team in their group multiple times.
  - notahacker 4y ago
    Going straight to the knockout stages means half the sides in the competition only play one game though, which isn't great for eager anticipation in those countries or travelling fans. Also increases the probability of big sides being amongst the sides going out early due to freak results when they're a bit rusty. The actual solution - playing the final games in a four game group simultaneously - removes most of the incentives for playing out draws (and means that a side that might be knocked out if the two sides in the other game draw is busy trying to win their game rather than watching powerlessly from the sidelines)
jl6 4y ago
> Although the Barbadians' own-goal was highly unconventional, FIFA decided not to penalise the team because they were playing optimally under the circumstances. The right decision. Unlike the artificial dullness of the Disgrace of Gijón, it sounds like the Barbados - Grenada situation prompted some thrilling, if chaotic, goal scoring attempts. Grenada were attacking both goals and Barbados were defending both goals! It sounds like some kind of chess variant.
- notahacker 4y ago
  It might have done, for the three whole minutes the sides played that way after one of them cheated by doing this extremely boring and uncompetitive thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlqfhLwBnE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlqfhLwBnE Unfortunately I don't think any footage of those minutes is publicly available But FIFA's been unusually consistent in handing out bans for deliberate own goals for strategic reasons in other contexts, so I'm not sure why Barbados got away with this one. Fixed matches and mass brawls can be pretty entertaining to watch too!
- mabbo 4y ago
  I wonder if one could create a really fun variant this way. One team guarding both nets, one team trying to score on both. Switch roles after a goal or some number of minutes. Then let's add some extra fun: one goal is worth two points. So how much better do you guard that one? How much more strongly do you attack that one? Strategies would be fascinating.
roussanoff 4y ago
A paper on incentive incompatibility of multiple round-robin and knockout tournaments: https://bpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/voices.uchicago.edu/dist/1/2748/files/2019/04/Dagaev-Sonin-Tournaments-JSE.pdf https://bpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/voices.uchicago.edu/dist/1/274...
realworldperson 4y ago
[dead]
lazyant 4y ago
In chess, Grandmasters draws are terrible for spectators. Maybe they should penalize with less than 0.5 points or like in Linares, with cash or not inviting back.
NoboruWataya 4y ago
Pretty insane that Barbados was able to prevent Grenada from scoring an own goal. I would think that would be very easy to do if you were actively trying to do it.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  Right? I'd like to see a video. They must've just maintained control of the ball? Or were they actively keeping both goals?
- kuroguro 4y ago
  With 3 minutes left I'd imagine there would be quite a bit of chaos. Do all the players know these rules? Do they understand why the opponents made an own goal? Have all of them figured out that an own goal is the optimal play now? Would love to see a recording tho.
stuaxo 4y ago
I'm not into football but would definitely watch this match.

151 points by thazework 4y ago

SBNation did a great little video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbuD-6BbnQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbuD-6BbnQw I recommend the entire "Weird Rules" series from that channel. Not only is it amusing, but it's filled with examples of accidentally creating wrong incentives for your users-- er... players.

mbauman 4y ago
I wish they'd just show the footage of the 3 minutes at the end of regulation time. They showed _some_ footage, but not what I'd think would be the most interesting parts! I think the only online footage of the game is here, just including clips of Grenada's goal at 83 minutes, Barbados' own goal, and the golden goal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlqfhLwBnE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlqfhLwBnE
- bigodbiel 4y ago
  thank you, that was really funny

a4isms 4y ago

This is hardly the first such weird outcome for a match that reflects a larger strategy of advancing in a tournament rather than simply attempting to win the match. It has been an ongoing scandal that teams collude to fix world cup matches during the qualifying rounds to ensure they both get a favourable position in the knockout rounds. That is considered cheating in soccer, but if you look at a sport like cycling, it is common for "rival" teams to team up and work together to chase down a breakaway, just as it is common for "rival" members of a breakaway or echelon to cooperate to beat everyone else. Why is one "match-fixing" and the other "the beauty of the sport?" Nothing more than expectations.

felipelemos 4y ago
This was not a match fix, and it is not considered cheat, although you could say it is unsportsmanlike.
- a4isms 4y ago
  Cheating, unsportsmanlike... The world is full of things that are legal but considered odious. Ultimately, if a sport becomes dominated by winning-at-the-expense-of-fan-enjoyment, it gets into trouble, so either the rules need another bug fix, or the sport evolves so that fans come to accept the behaviour as part of how the game is played. In cycling, fans consider the wheeling and dealing within the peloton of who works, who doesn't work, and who actively disrupts the work as part of what makes the sport interesting. In soccer, fans protest and throw things onto the field when two teams play, one scores a goal, and then for the rest of the game both teams pass the ball around without trying to do any more scoring. Is it cheating when both teams coöperate but simply enterprising use of the rules when one team attempts to score an own goal and the other team is forced to defend both goals? Regardless of the fine print in the rules, the larger issue is what the fans expect from a soccer match.
  - Lio 4y ago
    True but cycling fans would consider it unsportsmanlike for a rival to attack when the GC leader is taking a piss or has a mechanical breakdown, even though that's perfectly within the rules.
- bigodbiel 4y ago
  Technically it is match manipulation by most association regulations, even if not for financial gains. But it has always been part of the meta-game in such competitions, though this case was too extreme!
- Kon-Peki 4y ago
  > although you could say it is unsportsmanlike. I don’t think anyone rational would agree that it was unsportsmanlike. The situation was very clear, if they won by a single goal their season was over. The goal to make it 2-1 occurred in the 83rd minute and they didn’t adopt this strategy until the 87th minute. In those intervening 4 minutes they attempted to score and restore their 2-goal lead. There are other examples of locally detrimental behavior that aims for strategic advantage, such as the intentional walk in baseball. Or that sometimes in football/soccer a team will intentionally kick the ball out of bounds to stop play because of an injury to a player, and the other team responds afterward by throwing the ball in to the other team or kicking it out themselves.

dzonga 4y ago

the underlying story in this is incentives determine behavior.

whateveracct 4y ago
They are definitely one thing that does
dfxm12 4y ago
Talk about incentives... In the NBA, the commissioner could fine a team for resting players. This was because of a game where a team, the San Antonio Spurs, which was full of older players and was doing well enough in the standings, wanted to give their older stars a rest due to the back to back schedule, but the league didn't want this. The Spurs were incentivized to rest their players & avoid injuries because it's a long season. However, the game happened to be on National TV and the league and its media partners are incentivized to have both teams' stars on the court! See also, tanking (which is really hard to define) for a better draft pick. It's funny to me to accuse bad teams of losing on purpose... https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2735734-nba-reportedly-passes-anti-tanking-draft-reform-player-resting-rules https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2735734-nba-reportedly-p...
- pmontra 4y ago
  Or possibly cheating the Balance of Performance in Le Mans https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/le-mans-a-question-of-balance-as-porsche-cries-foul-over-ford-gt-on-eve-of-race/news-story/4db82d44656209bfafa33a46b5f054f7 https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/le-mans-a-question-o...
lo_zamoyski 4y ago
s/determine/encourage/

madcaptenor 4y ago

See also the Disgrace of Gijón (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón). This is between West Germany and Austria, the last match in a four-team round-robin group in the 1982 World Cup. Before this match it was clear that if West Germany won by 1 or 2 goals, West Germany and Austria would both advance; otherwise one of those teams would advance along with Algeria. You can guess what happens: West Germany scores a goal and then both teams stop trying. Since then, in the World Cup the two final matches of the group start at the same time. This is probably why the 48-team World Cup starting in 2026 will have 12 groups of 4 instead of 16 groups of 3 - there are similar opportunities for collusion in the final match of a three-team group, and no easy fix.

dfxm12 4y ago
Just spit balling, one fix could be to just skip the group stage and go right to a big knockout stage, ala domestic cups. That seems too obvious/simple though, so I'm sure there's some reason why they don't do it this way. Maybe they want every country to have a minimum number of games... Having a longer group stage will probably make these situation less likely as the best teams will pull ahead, but I don't think we want the players to play so many more games.
- madcaptenor 4y ago
  But the group stage won't be any longer - they're still groups of 4, so each team still plays three group games. However there might be more "pulling away" in a 48-team World Cup than in a 32-team World Cup just because there will be weaker teams in those groups for the strongest teams to beat up on.
  - dfxm12 4y ago
    By making the group stage longer, I meant that a team would play each other team in their group multiple times.
- notahacker 4y ago
  Going straight to the knockout stages means half the sides in the competition only play one game though, which isn't great for eager anticipation in those countries or travelling fans. Also increases the probability of big sides being amongst the sides going out early due to freak results when they're a bit rusty. The actual solution - playing the final games in a four game group simultaneously - removes most of the incentives for playing out draws (and means that a side that might be knocked out if the two sides in the other game draw is busy trying to win their game rather than watching powerlessly from the sidelines)

jl6 4y ago

> Although the Barbadians' own-goal was highly unconventional, FIFA decided not to penalise the team because they were playing optimally under the circumstances. The right decision. Unlike the artificial dullness of the Disgrace of Gijón, it sounds like the Barbados - Grenada situation prompted some thrilling, if chaotic, goal scoring attempts. Grenada were attacking both goals and Barbados were defending both goals! It sounds like some kind of chess variant.

notahacker 4y ago
It might have done, for the three whole minutes the sides played that way after one of them cheated by doing this extremely boring and uncompetitive thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlqfhLwBnE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZlqfhLwBnE Unfortunately I don't think any footage of those minutes is publicly available But FIFA's been unusually consistent in handing out bans for deliberate own goals for strategic reasons in other contexts, so I'm not sure why Barbados got away with this one. Fixed matches and mass brawls can be pretty entertaining to watch too!
mabbo 4y ago
I wonder if one could create a really fun variant this way. One team guarding both nets, one team trying to score on both. Switch roles after a goal or some number of minutes. Then let's add some extra fun: one goal is worth two points. So how much better do you guard that one? How much more strongly do you attack that one? Strategies would be fascinating.

roussanoff 4y ago

A paper on incentive incompatibility of multiple round-robin and knockout tournaments: https://bpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/voices.uchicago.edu/dist/1/2748/files/2019/04/Dagaev-Sonin-Tournaments-JSE.pdf https://bpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/voices.uchicago.edu/dist/1/274...

realworldperson 4y ago

[dead]

lazyant 4y ago

In chess, Grandmasters draws are terrible for spectators. Maybe they should penalize with less than 0.5 points or like in Linares, with cash or not inviting back.

NoboruWataya 4y ago

Pretty insane that Barbados was able to prevent Grenada from scoring an own goal. I would think that would be very easy to do if you were actively trying to do it.

thwayunion 4y ago
Right? I'd like to see a video. They must've just maintained control of the ball? Or were they actively keeping both goals?
kuroguro 4y ago
With 3 minutes left I'd imagine there would be quite a bit of chaos. Do all the players know these rules? Do they understand why the opponents made an own goal? Have all of them figured out that an own goal is the optimal play now? Would love to see a recording tho.

stuaxo 4y ago

I'm not into football but would definitely watch this match.