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Those guys are screwed now. Refusal of access means that they'll never get in on the visa waiver program and any employment in the future that might be with a

by buro9 15y ago

Those guys are screwed now. Refusal of access means that they'll never get in on the visa waiver program and any employment in the future that might be with a multi-national will be limited by their ability to travel. They just won't be able to enter the USA without going through an arduously long process every time. I've been telling my friends for the longest time to moderate everything that they say on the internet, in private and in public. Little of it will be used in your favour, and all of it can and will be used against you. It's not far from the way you would have to think if you were living under the Stasi. You'd have to think about how your public actions could be perceived, and you'd have to consider whether you trust any present parties for private actions. The biggest difference between people today and people under the Stasi is the awareness of it. Those under the Stasi knew to change their actions. The only thing to which these two are guilty of, is a failure to understand that this is not the world they thought it was.

mintplant 15y ago
Obligatory XKCD: http://xkcd.com/137/ http://xkcd.com/137/
- buro9 15y ago
  Someone downvoted you, so have an upvote. I wholeheartedly agree with that XKCD comic. However the thing is... speaking openly and care free, accepting the consequences of your actions into the future.... those are things that you need to know you're doing. That is: If you put your foot in it because you hold beliefs about the freedom of expression, then you do so knowingly. If you put your foot in it because you believe the world to be innocent, then you pay the price disproportionately. I just don't think people should be innocent about the world around them and how it (their government, big business, everything) works. This debate brings to mind this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_common_to_analytical/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_com... If we don't know we're constantly being interrogated, then how can we prevent ourselves from defecting by accident?
  - Splines 15y ago
    This debate brings to mind this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_com...* http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_com... Interesting read, thanks for that. Brings to mind forum flamewars and the like. I wonder how a community would evolve if the default post were a private reply, instead of a public one, or if public replies were throttled in some manner? Also, sometimes I feel that working in a stack-ranked group encourages defecting behaviour.
i386 15y ago
I love to travel and visit the US frequently but it's not the end of the world if they don't get to come back to the US. There is a whole lot more of the world than America.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Ryan_Shmotkin 15y ago
I think you are going a bit too far there with the "screwed". There are quite a few billions of people who never went or will go to the US - with little effect on their life. "Welcome to America, home of the corrupt and the beuracrats"
mikeash 15y ago
After an experience like that, I doubt I'd ever want to return to the US. Makes me terribly ashamed of my country, for sure.
digispaghetti 15y ago
The Kinks were banned from entering the US for 4 years - wasn't such a bad thing for them. Also, why should we live in a Stasi-like state and change our behaviour. I've been very critical of the US on my twitter for example, because from the outside the behaviour of the US is that of the later years of the Weimar Republic. I've know for quite a while it's probably not advisable for me to try enter the US - hell last time I was in Canada (last year) I let my girlfriend go shopping across the border and I stayed back - I didn't even want to enter your country, let alone have to deal with prick border guards who have me on some list.
iuguy 15y ago
> Those guys are screwed now. Really? Are you sure? They've never been before and it doesn't look like they'd even want to go after this. I haven't been to the US since 1999 and I don't feel screwed in any way shape or form. Plenty of multi-nationals don't require you to travel to the states, even here in the UK. Travelling to the US is expensive, holding conference calls in the afternoon is much cheaper. > It's not far from the way you would have to think if you were living under the Stasi. You'll have to forgive me for finding this a little hyperbolic. Not as hyperbolic as I'd like, but still fairly hyperbolic.

by buro9 15y ago

mintplant 15y ago

Obligatory XKCD: http://xkcd.com/137/ http://xkcd.com/137/

buro9 15y ago
Someone downvoted you, so have an upvote. I wholeheartedly agree with that XKCD comic. However the thing is... speaking openly and care free, accepting the consequences of your actions into the future.... those are things that you need to know you're doing. That is: If you put your foot in it because you hold beliefs about the freedom of expression, then you do so knowingly. If you put your foot in it because you believe the world to be innocent, then you pay the price disproportionately. I just don't think people should be innocent about the world around them and how it (their government, big business, everything) works. This debate brings to mind this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_common_to_analytical/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_com... If we don't know we're constantly being interrogated, then how can we prevent ourselves from defecting by accident?
- Splines 15y ago
  This debate brings to mind this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_com...* http://lesswrong.com/lw/372/defecting_by_accident_a_flaw_com... Interesting read, thanks for that. Brings to mind forum flamewars and the like. I wonder how a community would evolve if the default post were a private reply, instead of a public one, or if public replies were throttled in some manner? Also, sometimes I feel that working in a stack-ranked group encourages defecting behaviour.

i386 15y ago

I love to travel and visit the US frequently but it's not the end of the world if they don't get to come back to the US. There is a whole lot more of the world than America.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

Ryan_Shmotkin 15y ago

I think you are going a bit too far there with the "screwed". There are quite a few billions of people who never went or will go to the US - with little effect on their life. "Welcome to America, home of the corrupt and the beuracrats"

mikeash 15y ago

After an experience like that, I doubt I'd ever want to return to the US. Makes me terribly ashamed of my country, for sure.

digispaghetti 15y ago

The Kinks were banned from entering the US for 4 years - wasn't such a bad thing for them. Also, why should we live in a Stasi-like state and change our behaviour. I've been very critical of the US on my twitter for example, because from the outside the behaviour of the US is that of the later years of the Weimar Republic. I've know for quite a while it's probably not advisable for me to try enter the US - hell last time I was in Canada (last year) I let my girlfriend go shopping across the border and I stayed back - I didn't even want to enter your country, let alone have to deal with prick border guards who have me on some list.

iuguy 15y ago

> Those guys are screwed now. Really? Are you sure? They've never been before and it doesn't look like they'd even want to go after this. I haven't been to the US since 1999 and I don't feel screwed in any way shape or form. Plenty of multi-nationals don't require you to travel to the states, even here in the UK. Travelling to the US is expensive, holding conference calls in the afternoon is much cheaper. > It's not far from the way you would have to think if you were living under the Stasi. You'll have to forgive me for finding this a little hyperbolic. Not as hyperbolic as I'd like, but still fairly hyperbolic.