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Do you think it's difficult to consider the cops in family might be bad? It's not like they are going to tell you the horrible things they may have done. You t

Do you think it's difficult to consider the cops in family might be bad? It's not like they are going to tell you the horrible things they may have done. You think the cops in your family are good because they are in your family and are nice to you. That's probably the extent of the details about their job you know

deadly_syn 4y ago
This sounds like mental gymnastics at this point. "Have you considered the average hn user is a rapist, of course they deny it and they dont talk about it. You think HN users are good because theyre nice to you!" Im as anti-authoritarian as they come, but I really dont like hyperbolic arguments.
- SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
  I think pointing out “I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” is inherently poor counterpoint because obviously the cops aren’t going to admit to wrongdoings to civilians (although the poster didn’t mention any domestic violence happens in the home, which is shockingly high in cop families…) is not mental gymnastics.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    <<“I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” I apologize. This is not what I intended to convey. That line was intended more as disclaimer ("hey. i am not completely objective here"). My actual argument follows beneath ("cops are just humans").
- tracker1 4y ago
  Agreed, I think it was an honest disclosure that one obviously may have bias, but also that one might have more exposure to police than most. My dad spent about a decade as an undercover narc, some pretty interesting stories, including when he had to deal with police while undercover. Getting pulled over leaving a bar on the way to a buy, with gun and badge in motorcycle roll. "I'm not unrolling that..." to prove he was who he said, "I think my boss would be more upset about dropping a buy than me blowing over on an alcohol test." Or, getting caught in the middle of a shootout between the Feds and a biker gang. Edit: My dad also quit two positions along the way, one because his boss was a clear racist, and another that had some other issues in the dept. My mom was a dispatcher, and when retired was head of combined dispatch for a region. She mostly dealt with people in trouble, distress, or sometimes the absurd.
- snozolli 4y ago
  Have you considered the average hn user is a rapist, of course they deny it Unless you can show me that HN users are part of a structured organization notorious for rape, this isn't even remotely analogous. Police are part of a hierarchy and brotherhood that is very well known to abuse its authority, act outside the law, and protect its own, all without legal repercussion.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Are we talking about hn users? Did someone say "Hackernews as an organization of people is bad" then another person said "well, I know a few people and they are good"
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
<< Do you think it's difficult to consider the cops in family might be bad? Not at all..I accept we are all humans. That said, define bad for me so that we are not talking about fairly relative and abstract terms and can be easily misconstrued. For example, I do not want to get into specifics and you are certainly right that they would be foolish to disclose their own transgressions if any were committed for several different reasons. However, the conversations we did have on some events[1] they were not involved in painted a relatively close picture of their thought process and considerations at play. I am going to paraphrase and try to capture the gist of that conversation in sentences that follow where 'they' refers to the cops on the scene ( and to an extent the blue shield/line phenomenon ). In short, one of their own fucked up. They knew he fucked up, but they tried to protect him from immediate fallout. As related, they said family was paid off, but 'could not keep their mouths shut', which is where the resentment was with those who did not hold up their end of the bargain that was supposedly struck. And naturally, when the case made national news, everyone was pissed, because assumption was that money bought silence on the matter ( who footed the bill for that silence was not clear, but, presumably taxpayer ). Now, the political fallout makes it more complicated, because the rank and file has had the impression that case was informally settled and, from their perspective, it was 'over'. Rank and file finds out they get no cover from leadership and so the thin blue line only grows stronger as a result. Now, you might be thinking: "This is exactly what I am talking about. If you participate in any way in this, you are the bad guy.' I urge you to consider what you would have done. This case was a clearly fucked up case. I would like to think I would have stood up. That said, as a cop, just like when you are a doctor, or a lawyer or any other high stakes job, you will eventually make a mistake that will result in someone dying. You will fuck up. And in some extreme cases, you will kill someone. That is the reality of that job. And it is a lot to take in. There are logical consequences to what I just said and I absolutely recognize it can be horrifying. There is a reason I compared cops to doctors and lawyers, because I think this could help offset some of the issues should we ever get to an actual working improvement of police in US, but I don't want to get too far ahead of this conversation. With that in mind lets go through some of the scenarios: 'if you know your actions in the course of work may end up killing someone are you automatically a bad person?' 'if you identify with a group, because you understand the toll it takes, are you automatically a bad person?' 'if you become a member of that group, because $absolute_number_of_members did $bad_thing, are you automatically a bad person?' I have more questions along those lines, but I worry that I already threw out a lot into the ether so I am curious of your response. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laquan_McDonald https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laquan_McDonald

deadly_syn 4y ago

This sounds like mental gymnastics at this point. "Have you considered the average hn user is a rapist, of course they deny it and they dont talk about it. You think HN users are good because theyre nice to you!" Im as anti-authoritarian as they come, but I really dont like hyperbolic arguments.

SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
I think pointing out “I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” is inherently poor counterpoint because obviously the cops aren’t going to admit to wrongdoings to civilians (although the poster didn’t mention any domestic violence happens in the home, which is shockingly high in cop families…) is not mental gymnastics.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  <<“I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” I apologize. This is not what I intended to convey. That line was intended more as disclaimer ("hey. i am not completely objective here"). My actual argument follows beneath ("cops are just humans").
tracker1 4y ago
Agreed, I think it was an honest disclosure that one obviously may have bias, but also that one might have more exposure to police than most. My dad spent about a decade as an undercover narc, some pretty interesting stories, including when he had to deal with police while undercover. Getting pulled over leaving a bar on the way to a buy, with gun and badge in motorcycle roll. "I'm not unrolling that..." to prove he was who he said, "I think my boss would be more upset about dropping a buy than me blowing over on an alcohol test." Or, getting caught in the middle of a shootout between the Feds and a biker gang. Edit: My dad also quit two positions along the way, one because his boss was a clear racist, and another that had some other issues in the dept. My mom was a dispatcher, and when retired was head of combined dispatch for a region. She mostly dealt with people in trouble, distress, or sometimes the absurd.
snozolli 4y ago
Have you considered the average hn user is a rapist, of course they deny it Unless you can show me that HN users are part of a structured organization notorious for rape, this isn't even remotely analogous. Police are part of a hierarchy and brotherhood that is very well known to abuse its authority, act outside the law, and protect its own, all without legal repercussion.
themitigating 4y ago
Are we talking about hn users? Did someone say "Hackernews as an organization of people is bad" then another person said "well, I know a few people and they are good"

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

<< Do you think it's difficult to consider the cops in family might be bad? Not at all..I accept we are all humans. That said, define bad for me so that we are not talking about fairly relative and abstract terms and can be easily misconstrued. For example, I do not want to get into specifics and you are certainly right that they would be foolish to disclose their own transgressions if any were committed for several different reasons. However, the conversations we did have on some events[1] they were not involved in painted a relatively close picture of their thought process and considerations at play. I am going to paraphrase and try to capture the gist of that conversation in sentences that follow where 'they' refers to the cops on the scene ( and to an extent the blue shield/line phenomenon ). In short, one of their own fucked up. They knew he fucked up, but they tried to protect him from immediate fallout. As related, they said family was paid off, but 'could not keep their mouths shut', which is where the resentment was with those who did not hold up their end of the bargain that was supposedly struck. And naturally, when the case made national news, everyone was pissed, because assumption was that money bought silence on the matter ( who footed the bill for that silence was not clear, but, presumably taxpayer ). Now, the political fallout makes it more complicated, because the rank and file has had the impression that case was informally settled and, from their perspective, it was 'over'. Rank and file finds out they get no cover from leadership and so the thin blue line only grows stronger as a result. Now, you might be thinking: "This is exactly what I am talking about. If you participate in any way in this, you are the bad guy.' I urge you to consider what you would have done. This case was a clearly fucked up case. I would like to think I would have stood up. That said, as a cop, just like when you are a doctor, or a lawyer or any other high stakes job, you will eventually make a mistake that will result in someone dying. You will fuck up. And in some extreme cases, you will kill someone. That is the reality of that job. And it is a lot to take in. There are logical consequences to what I just said and I absolutely recognize it can be horrifying. There is a reason I compared cops to doctors and lawyers, because I think this could help offset some of the issues should we ever get to an actual working improvement of police in US, but I don't want to get too far ahead of this conversation. With that in mind lets go through some of the scenarios: 'if you know your actions in the course of work may end up killing someone are you automatically a bad person?' 'if you identify with a group, because you understand the toll it takes, are you automatically a bad person?' 'if you become a member of that group, because $absolute_number_of_members did $bad_thing, are you automatically a bad person?' I have more questions along those lines, but I worry that I already threw out a lot into the ether so I am curious of your response. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laquan_McDonald https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laquan_McDonald